Am I being too generous ? Or am I too tight ?

So those who work and train hard and fail to find employment at some point should be what, left to rot?

You miss the point, those who work hard ENOUGH and train hard ENOUGH do not find themselves in that situation 

kittenkat wrote (see)

My biggest issue is people on benefits being able to afford luxuries way above what other (2 adult working full time with 2 kids) households, can't.

Holidays, expensive race entry etc... How the fuck can they do that?

This is such Daily Mail reader hard of thinking type blurb.

Maybe because things are not in balance. Maybe The two workers waste money on some luxury items and then complain that the non-workers prioritised other things. I've seen people on the dole with Sky TV. That's a luxury. I've also seen them living off nothing but cheap junk fozen meals that most would turn their nose up at.The list can go on and on.

What do you suggest treating them like scum that can only use vouchers to buy goods we deem non-luxury?

Nick Windsor 4 wrote (see)

You miss the point, those who work hard ENOUGH and train hard ENOUGH do not find themselves in that situation 

No that's just simple minded Tory I'm alright, so those others just didn't work hard enough type thinking. Just because something happens or doesn't happen to you doen't make it fact.

I agree with Kittenkat if I'm working and people living off my tax can afford those items then I'm sorry but thats gone beyond caring for their needs that is giving them luxuries at my expense, which is not on.

I also agree with Nick Windsor 4 work hard and you will be fine, hard times may come your way, although it is unlikely, if you think the world owes you a living,  watch out.

I do like your suggestion for vouchers though, that would stop the booze and fags, or do you think the unworking should be able to have those as well.

Eggyh73 wrote (see)

No that's just simple minded Tory I'm alright, so those others just didn't work hard enough type thinking. Just because something happens or doesn't happen to you doen't make it fact.

I'm sorry but you are not making sense now, and it seems anyone disagrees with you is either Tory or Daily mail, you are on the old Rock n Roll aren't you

So you want to treat the poor as scum and some sort of under class? I think we should provide them with the money and let them choose what they spend that on. A voucher concept is vile and repulsive.

It's like a Young Tory convention around these parts. I guess running must attract middle class idiots wanting to blame the worlds ills on the poor rather than directing the blame to those who it should be aimed at.

Nick Windsor 4 wrote (see)

Eggyh73 wrote (see)

No that's just simple minded Tory I'm alright, so those others just didn't work hard enough type thinking. Just because something happens or doesn't happen to you doen't make it fact.

I'm sorry but you are not making sense now, and it seems anyone disagrees with you is either Tory or Daily mail, you are on the old Rock n Roll aren't you

Maybe you should have educated yourself to read plain old English. Secondly, no I'm not.

Working hard and being educated has somewhat tenuous links with financial success.

A voucher scheme sounds overly harsh. I don't think the state should be dictating what people spend their benefits on, and people's genuine needs will vary hugely.

But there was a piece on this morning's news about the fact that many people on benefits don't / can't have bank accounts, which brings with it quite a few disadvantages: They have to 'cash in' their benefits (meaning they suddenly have a lump sum of cash, which is difficult to manage in the way that you can with a bank account); and they can't benefit from cheaper online purchasing that you can with a bank account.

The suggestion was that they could instrad be given a card which could be used in a similar way to a debit card (presumably with some kind of 'statement'). This could be used to buy pretty much anything, but with some exceptions... so they couldn't use it to buy tobacco, alcohol, Sky TV etc.

That did seem quite a reasonable idea to me.

Nick Windsor 4 wrote (see)

Julie, I am reasonably educated because I trained whilst working for most of my working life up to the age of 35 at my own expense, I have been in redundancy situations on 5 occasions and yes I've come out well, why? because I am ready, and I am a worker. No one gave it to me, I did it, I am proud of it, I am not lucky, privileged or anything other than hard working and frankly I don't support the idea that it is impossible to work. Sorry if you don't like that but the picture you paint will never be me.

Never say never....

So, what if you 'couldn't' work, through sudden illness or disability?

Another area of huge contention I know, and I'm sure there are plenty of people claiming disability benefit who really shouldn't be.... but the current flawed system surely doesn't mean there should be no system at all?

Wilikie - I didn't reply because I'd already posted details earlier in the thread but yes, I do if it needs reiterating.

And Cougie's point is valid. This is what has happened to many people in the US because the healthcare system has sapped their savings. They've had a serious illness, their healthcare hasn't covered it and they basically have to cough up for life-saving treatment.

It's beginning to happen in Britain because the cost of utilities and other essentials are constantly rising above the rate of inflation, eroding incomes while wages are stagnant.

And, while I'm here:

Cost to UK economy of tax avoidance: £32bn

Cost to UK economy of the banking crisis: nobody actually knows but one figure estimates £850 billion.

Cost to UK economy of benefit scrounging/fraud: £1.2bn

Does that put things into perspective for you Nick?

you can prove anything with facts

Nick Windsor 4 wrote (see)

You miss the point, those who work hard ENOUGH and train hard ENOUGH do not find themselves in that situation 

This is complete nonsense and twaddle. there is no factual basis behind that statement at all.

Very many people who work hard and train hard find themselves in positions of redundancy, unemployment, reduced income all the time for all manner of reasons, often totally out of their control.

I've worked in industries which have gone through boom and bust. It doesn't matter how hard you work or how much training you do, if the area of your employment or expertise crashes it's very easy to find yourself out of work, competing for only a few jobs with other highly qualified and skilled individuals. That's only one small example - retrain of course but that takes time and money. use what skills you have to move into another field of work but that often means starting at a lower pay grade and retraining.
You don't know how redundancy / unemployment / financial worries will affect any given individual, some people may take it as a challenge, others may take it as a knock and it destroy their self worth. You can't make swinging assumptions based on your own character and experience.

Oh just as Cougie says, shit happens and I'm wading in the stuff up to my ass.

But it's ok cos I'm going to come out smelling of roses so sod everyone else. I'm happy.

For the record

Cougie if I broke both arms I would need time off, but my years of work without any sick leave would stand me in good stead, I am able to have 13 weeks full pay due to this so I should be OK. My training also means I am reasonably well equipped to work from home, or should I need to find alternative employment.

Yes I do wnat a situation where people on benefits are given vouchers, it would ensure they spend where necessary on food and essentials for the family and keep them off the online bingo, out of the bookies, cut down on their "fags and beer" luxury for a non worker should be  atraining course.

Eggy I don't read the daily mail or listen to tory MPs, I am proud of my working class and emphasise the working. so today I'll be up and about again in work from this ungodly hour while you lie there waiting for Jeremy Kyle, you are typical of the type that of person and thinking that has brought us into this mess, holier than thou losers.

I thought we'd already established that Eggy is not unemployed -or have you actually swapped your blinkers for a blindfold this morning? 

Your argument is one of the worst I've ever seen, based on something you've pulled out of your head and not based on any facts whatsoever. I suggest to you that's its a case of hating what you most fear i.e. that having faced redundancy several times you know how close you might have come to other people thinking that way about YOU. It's great that it gave you the drive to go out and find work. It isn't great that it stripped you of your empathy and clouded any sensible reasoning. 

Perhaps your real angst shuld be towards companies like Tesco who make huge profits but still have employees that need propping up by the taxpayer because they don't earn a living wage. The boss, meanwhile, earns something like 7m annually in pay and bonuses.

Oh and you do realise that the term "Daily Mail Reader" can be  metaphorical as well as literal don't you?