Believing in God

I'll start believing in a god when there's no more pain, suffering, war, hatred and death in the world. 

JvR wrote (see)

EKGO wrote (see)

as a kid in the 60s going to Catholic schools that were run by Nuns I was given all manner of punishment including the cane by three different people, Headmaster, class teacher and the head Nun, 

I'm so glad that attitudes have changed in schools and that corporal punishment doesn't happen any more. I never had the cane but I know a few people that got given the cane or the slipper. I'd hate my son or neices to have to go through that.
I wonder how someone would have faired if they had taken their school to court for assault.

I too was at school in the 60's and 70's. Assaults on me by teachers, I can remember most of them, here goes, the rap sheet. From infant school on:

Slapped legs, slapped legs, slapped legs (1st primary school)

Roughed up and thrown to ground, belted around the head(2nd primary school)

Caned, Caned, belted around head with book, belted across face with wet sponge(Secondary school)

Rickster

From a very philosophical point of view. Which Im not sure I stand by myself but feel as a believer of a God some elements ring true. Its also an argument that always comes up and I say it to get a reaction.

We are on this planet and the one thing we are told to do is love and enjoy what we have. If their was nothing bad on the earth and everything was amazing and nobody died and nothing bad happened, we would already be in heaven. Pain and suffering makes us re-evaluate what is important to us.I know their will be a long list of horrific things that I cannot justify but even Atheist philosophers who talk about a God if a God existed would say something similar but more eloquent than I.

Now I know this will get slated but its worth lobing in there

Also just to add that God will eliminate all suffering once somebody dies as our life continues after this one. So what seems like suffering in this life will cease when we die but in the next life all will be good.

I cling to this as my mum is slowly dying of Multiple Myeloma-It brings me much comfort and at the end of the day what is wrong with that?

Sorry to hear about your mum Vicar.

Rickster wrote (see)

I'll start believing in a god when there's no more pain, suffering, war, hatred and death in the world. 

You will "start believing in God" implies you currently dont believe in God. Surely then, all the "pain, suffering, war, hatred and death in the world" must be caused by man, yet you, who doesnt believe in God, seems to be blaming God for all the bad things that happen ? It seems to me that when a loved one dies a lot of relatives blame God for taking one of the good people away and not doing anything to prevent illness & diseases etc, and that does include believers in God as well. But you very rarely hear them thank God for when something good happens in their lifes.

Flimby wrote (see)

So I conclude from my origional post that Jimmy ran 3:30 marathons which to me (who has yet to attempt one) Is a very respectable time.

As for all the other posts with nothing to do with his running (this is runners world after all) The guy has passed away. Never to my knowledge have I heard anything contraversial in the media about J.S & he isn't here to defend himself!

The  guy was perhaps a little excentric & reclusive but it gives no one the right to speculate on here or anywhere without concrete evidence. Think of all the good he did for charity & putting a smile on many peoples faces over the years.

GOD REST YOUR SOUL SIR JIMMY!

Flimby wrote (see)

It was I who did the original post........

What can I say, he might had done a lot for for charity but it was no doubt a front for the recent revelations. A childhood hero of mine no more. Pity he is not around to spend his twilight years rotting away in jail.......

TheVicar wrote (see)

Also just to add that God will eliminate all suffering once somebody dies as our life continues after this one.

What is your authority for this proposition?

You have no authority, you have no proof.

Don't say things are true that you have absolutely no way of knowing.

No mr unstoppable sex machine, he's saying that man is responsible for war and death (though not all pain, accidents disease). he's asking why should he believe in a god or gods that condone these things? Ignoring the the lack of physical evidence for a supreme being, on a philosophical level it's illogical that a an omnipotent being who apparently loves us all would let us suffer just so we could appreciate heaven? And if we are going to go to heaven and everything will be perfect for eternity, why do we need to through this reality, what's the point? Or is it that heaven is a crutch for people who've fallen on hard times in this realm and need something to believe in to cope with the reality of our basically futile existance?

The Vicar, yes sorry to hear about your mum too, that really is horrible for you and your family. My auntie had a a child with cerebral palsy, she turned to god, even as far as going to faith healers, unsurprisingly my cousin was never "cured" nearly 50 years later where has it got them?

Sit in a bath of baked beans for 5 years, run 100 marathons in a 100 days, do something to raise money for research, do the research yourself if you're clever enough, do something real. Best wishes.

Lardarse - where does it say God condones these things ?

It doesn't, you're missing the point. What's the point of having a god or gods if they do nothing for you? if they don't help you in your time of need?

That's what rickster is saying, god by definition is omnipotent yet he allows all this suffering (considering his omnipotence allowing is the same as condoning), so why should anyone believe in such a malevolent being?

Gods do something for some people surely ? Whilst it might not be something physical that you can see e.g. make someone better who is dying, it gives a lost of people a lot of comfort to know that their loved ones are going to another place ? So, what about all the tens of thousands of people who receive medical help from doctors and nurses etc. God put those people on earth (doctors and nurses) and made them the type of person they are to want to study to help people ? It seems to me that whenever things go wrong people jump on the 'it's Gods fault' bandwagon yet when it's the reverse it's a case of science taking all the credit.

Lardarse, do you believe in a God ? How do you think we all came to be here ?

We came to be here through a series of chemical and physical events.  It has nothing to do with an omnipotent being.

To counter the question "What was there before the big bang?", what was there before God.  That is, what was there 6,001 years ago?

Intermanaut wrote (see)

We came to be here through a series of chemical and physical events.  It has nothing to do with an omnipotent being.

 

Proof ?

No I don't believe in a god.

Yes having a belief system is beneficial to some people who need that crutch to exist, it's not an easy path to accept that you are ultimately alone in this world. If people believe that god put nurses intheir jobs thats up to them, it doesn't it's true. This still stems from Rickster wanting physical proof. Why would god create doctors and nurses when he could cut out the middle man and not let the bad things happen in the first place?

God either doesn't exist or he's incompetent.

...either way, why should I or anyone else believe in it?

I believe I came to be here because my dad put his penis inside my mums fanny and squirted his jism inside her at just the right time of the month that she was ovulating.

carterusm wrote (see)

Intermanaut wrote (see)

We came to be here through a series of chemical and physical events.  It has nothing to do with an omnipotent being.

 

Proof ?

Does evolution not count?  Please prove that there's a god.

Unlike the rabid bible-thumper in Cheltenham, who thinks that the fact that there's absolutely no evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, most people require proof that something does exist.

Anyway, answer my first question: what was there before God, 6,001 years ago?

Intermanaut wrote (see)

We came to be here through a series of chemical and physical events.  It has nothing to do with an omnipotent being.

To counter the question "What was there before the big bang?", what was there before God.  That is, what was there 6,001 years ago?

carterusm wrote (see)

Intermanaut wrote (see)

We came to be here through a series of chemical and physical events.  It has nothing to do with an omnipotent being.

 

Proof ?

God.

Proof?

edit, sorry cross post...

Given that God created us in her own image, and we've evolved from primoridial goo, I'm surprised Believers haven't claimed that God must also have been goo.  QED.

"God either doesn't exist or he's incompetent."

These aren't the only alternatives. e.g.

- A god could have given up on us.

- God could be a sadist, and we his little experiment.

- He could have gone to the other side of the universe and be too busy with the Planet Zorg, his latest creation, to be bothered with the earthlings at present.

- God might have died.

A good book on this (for my recollection of 25 years ago anyway) is The Problem of Pain by C S Lewis which discusses some of this stuff.

Rickster – The old argument goes God gives us free will to do good things. Some people abuse this and do bad things. If God intervened we would no longer have the free will to do good things. You are also making an assumption of absolute morality in your comment. You cite war, famine and hatred. Are these things fundamentally wrong on some deep level that transcends humanity. Or are they merely human constructs on what’s right and wrong, good and bad? Perhaps an all loving intelligence wouldn’t see these things in the same moral light we do. After all I never hear people questioning why a God would allow creatures of less intelligence than us starve, or suffer in some way. We just accept it as the way things are and apply no moral or ethical labels to it. It’s just nature. Btw I’m not arguing for a God, just responding to your post!

FWIW I think it perfectly possible to put forward a logical argument for an intelligent creator of the Universe (Though it seems to create more questions than it answers and I find other theories much more plausible). Though of course it’s completely different to acknowledge that an intelligent creator is a logical possibility to move to a religious view of an anthropomorphised God. A view which I cannot give any credibility to.

Intermanaut wrote (see)

Anyway, answer my first question: what was there before God, 6,001 years ago?

Havent a clue. I happen to believe there is a God but the proof is flakey, at least. A book written by a few people a couple of thousand years ago is no real proof at all. I was bought up a catholic but didnt believe everything, or agree with everything, I was told at church e.g. no sex before marriage. My question would be why, if two people love each other, shouldnt they be allowed to consumate that relationship by having sex. I do, however, believe that the church has helped guide me to reach my own conclusions during the course of my life and help me to become the person I am. On the other hand, I am also not convinced about the big bang theory and all that stuff. Whilst, in more recent years, there is plenty of scientific evidence to support many things, there is still no actual proof about how we came to be here. So, I believe in one thing and others believe in something else. That's how God wanted it to be when he put us here