Believing in God

or not

61 to 80 of 249 messages
10/10/2012 at 09:13

The bloke could simply have been making observations and come up with a good idea. The David Blaine of his time. Unlike the sceptics of today, his ilk had no idea about much so would believe anything. He could have been lying through his teeth. He could have been suffering with a brain disorder, the prophets were clearly hallucinating. The stuff about God making us in his own image is pure human arrogance. Just a man-made comfort that hides the fact that we really are totally meaningless. We just exist.

seren nos    pirate
10/10/2012 at 09:23

The Vicar did not say he believed every word on the Bible and every thing a prophet said........

It is about still reading ,thinking and looking at all the parts of the bible..which is keeping an open mind about things.whilst still believing in one fundamental principle.......That there is something bigger out there that is spiritual and that can effect peoples lives...

10/10/2012 at 09:28
Nurse Ratched wrote (see)

That's what you believe.  It is not a fact.  I would argue that there isn't, and he didn't.

He prefaced every other sentence with "I believe".  Discussions would be pretty tedious to read if you had to say I believe or "in my opinion" every time you wrote a sentence which reads as a statement of fact.

10/10/2012 at 10:02

This might help.

10/10/2012 at 10:03

Vicar - from our previous discussions I gathered that you are 1) in the process of becoming a vicar and 2) A fairly recent convert to Christianity.


I also get the impression that you had a conversion event - i.e. something specific happened to convince you of the reality of god.  Great - however your arguments for belief do come across quite earnest and excited as if you have just discovered this 'wonderful thing' and you want to tell us all about it.  Problem is, been there - got the t-shirt - realised it was all smoke and mirrors.    I think I said this to you in the other thread but if you need to say 'I believe' in any argument - then it's going to fail to convince. Doubly so if you bring the bible into it - because those of us who are non-believers think of the bible as just so many stories, collected in such a way as to increase the political power of the ruling churchmen of the time.

10/10/2012 at 10:30

Unfortunately 'I Believe' is what Religion is all about.  I cannot convince you of my feelings because they are my feelings. My feelings are something exists. I can only tell you about my feelings, the same as any other Christian can do. Their is no way I can sit here and convince you God exists and their is no way anybody can sit their and tell me he doesn't and as long as that happens we will aimlessly argue and never agree Its so individualistic that what works for one does not work for another. I know a lady who when asked a question will sit there and say one second, she will go quiet for a while then come back and say 'I have just had a chat with God and this is what I think' I think shes as nutty as squirrel s**t but shes happy enough. Sitting in Church on a Sunday she is there and sat next to her is an old boy who thinks completely different about it all. The great thing about Christianity is that if you are opened minded you will always find something on your level, wherever you are on your journey.

10/10/2012 at 10:57

You are making the assumption that the journey has anything whatsoever to do with Christianity.


10/10/2012 at 11:02

Did anyone see this on Monday?  It was quite interesting, but I came away from it with the reinforced belief that the believers are, while entitled to believe in God (and I would defend their right to hold that belief), mental, short-sighted, stubborn, and not particularly bright.

10/10/2012 at 11:02

Indeed I am because I am a Christian if I was an Atheist then i'd be taking that journey but I am not

10/10/2012 at 11:29

The whole creationist idea is falling flat on its face aswe speak give it 10 years and it will be gone. Just another fad

10/10/2012 at 11:30

@TheVicar - so, you're not a Creationist.  What's your take on the Old Testament?

10/10/2012 at 11:49

Honestly- My take is its an incredible piece of literature that was written by some pretty amazing people. What I call historical events I believe happened IE Exodus and the making of Israel as this can be backed up with Archaeology and historians at the time etc. I think the floods and plagues etc were just that. But at the time these people believed it to be God. Adam and Eve was also exactly that, 3000 years ago these people did not have any idea where they came from so this story came into being. If you look back at many lost or ancient religions it pretty much ties in with all of what they believed too. But Adam and Eve isn' too far from the truth-we must have come into being as a man and a woman-we came from dust (the earth we live in) So its not all rubbish. As a Christian and a teacher of said subject, I believe the OT is a tool for us today to look upon and see that whatever troubles we have today have already happened to somebody else and we can gain strength from seeing the outcome play out in the OT. Yes some of its horrific, no different to the world around us today, did God cause any of it? who knows. As a CofE Priest we are told when going through the discernment process, that when reading the Bible and deciphering the meanings we should bring into to the equation, tradition and reason. Reason is a biggy, it doesn't mean we have to sit their and be completely daft about it and say oh Adam and Eve existed even though it has been proven as an allegory. I bring what I know about the world today and apply it to what I read. Now all of you will say thats picking the bits that you want to believe and not picking the bits that are difficult. Thats when tradition comes into it. You can see what has been written and said about the subject before by the thousands of people who have talked and studied whatever subject it is you're looking at. From that you can make an informed choice. You have to bring your own knowledge and thoughts to reading it. Everybody will see it differently. If you asked 2 people to tell you what happened at a football match it will be different but the score will always be the same.

10/10/2012 at 11:51
TheVicar wrote (see)

The whole creationist idea is falling flat on its face aswe speak give it 10 years and it will be gone. Just another fad

seems to be still growing in the US though sadly.  

10/10/2012 at 12:00

So's obesity Sorry couldn't help it. Yes the main reason is the Septic's tend to love fast easy to grasp info. Or fast food, or quick convinient ideas and thoughts, they like a fad. It's pretty much hit a wall in this country and many other countries around the world. In CofE circles if you said the world was made 6000 years ago you will get a strange look and be asked to move on.

10/10/2012 at 12:01

Yes, surveys seem to routinely show that something like half of Americans believe in Creationism and that the Earth is literally a few thousand years old.  I find that quite staggering.

"Forty six percent Americans believed in creationism, 32 percent believed in theistic evolution and 15 percent believed in evolution without any divine intervention. As the graph below shows, the percent of Americans who believe in creationism has increased slightly by 2 percent over the last 30 years. The percent of Americans who believe in evolution has also increased by 6 percent over the last 30 years while the percent of Americans who believe in theistic evolution has decreased by 6 percent over the same time period."

Huffington Post, May 2012

LIVERBIRD    pirate
10/10/2012 at 12:04

I don't mind if you believe or not. And I like to have the discussion. I simply find it infuriating that because people have chosen to NOT believe think it's OK to either ridicule or insult those who do and it's particularly telling amongst those who wouldn't dream of attacking Islam or Judaism for fear of being labelled anti-semitic or Islamophobic, which are apparently "not cool" but it's fine to mock Christianity, as if it's fair game.

This is people's BELIEFS you are disrespecting. And I'm very aware that the Christian church has issues and conflicts it needs to deal with and for that I make no excuse but PLEASE stop with the words like "Jesus freaks" (another thread) and "Bible basher" because its derogatory and makes you look like a bigot. You're just too dim to realise that racial prejudice is actually applying to YOU.

LIVERBIRD    pirate
10/10/2012 at 12:05

And I see from this thread that many people are VERY respecting of other people's chosen path too. I don't deny that.


10/10/2012 at 12:09

Liverbird. I agree but I cannot say this because I have chosen my camp. Religion is a very easy thing to slag off unfortunately and sometimes we do not help ourselves. I have found some comments offensive but truthfully I know everybody can have their own say. I think its healthy that people are talking about these issues and have such strong beliefs

10/10/2012 at 12:13

LB - as I posted on t'other thread

"fair enuff.  but then I don't class most people who believe in the Christian or similar religions, freaks.  Jesus freaks to me are those who are unable/unwilling/or just plain dumb not to see past their beliefs and able to see that there are other points of view - they are single minded, deluded fools, who are often to be found jabbering to themselves or knocking on doors trying to convert people."

I trust you don't find that view disrespectful??   I have no issue with anyone who has their own set of beliefs of whatever flavour, but it's the intolerant ones amongst that group, or those who try to foist their beliefs on me, that grip my shit.


10/10/2012 at 12:16

If I have offended I apologise.  


I love to talk about religion (as you know Vicar) - and will happily slag off Islam, Judaism and christianity depending on context and which particular part of the theology is under discussion.   I do not believe that a robust faith should be afraid of a little bit of critisicm.  I do think however that to say that it is 'stupid' to believe shows a great lack of empathy.  I will happily say that I think ignorance in a population will lead to busier churches or mosques - and if you look at the world today you can see how faith and poverty are linked in many places.  I think it makes a lot of sense and proves nothing with regards to whether god exists or not.

I think believing in god can make a lot of sense in many circumstances and I think it is a lot nicer and easier to live with than atheism.  I can't help NOT believing any more than a Christian or Moslem can help believing.


I do have a strong and abiding hatred of certain members of a certain church who make highly bigoted and offensive statements to the press about certain segments of society - and that I will not apologise for.

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