Believing in God

or not

161 to 180 of 249 messages
13/10/2012 at 21:14

ha ha yes I see what you mean, to qualify the statement, we are the first generation that have never been called to war, I can see it's a totally different statement the way I put it, and that was not the intention

The amazing new drug - Education, how many educated people in the UK right now would follow a call to arms, drop their jobs and volunteer to attack a foreign country?


13/10/2012 at 21:43

How many apparently Educated people still believe God exists? 

14/10/2012 at 07:32

Before I go off to the heathen masses

Well in my Church thismorning there will be 80 -90 people in a town of about 6000 people. Every one of them is very well educated. We have Doctor's, pilots, company owners etc So this is a microcosm, so a lot of well educated people believe in God. The excuse these people are un-educated, deluded etc just does not stand I am afraid.

The fact that some nuns used to cane people hasn't really got much to do with God as in secular schools this used to happen all the time too. My mum was beatn with a slipper on a regular basis in a secular school, my dad the same etc Just part and parcel of going to school a few years ago.

As for the Gay debate. When somebody says to me being Gay aint right I say point out in the Bible where it states this. They will say leviticus says a man should not lay with a man. Then I say if you read the next few verses it also says man should not wear 2 kinds of thread. So I ask them what their clothes are made out of. After a few seconds they look at me funny and I say why is that rule ignored but the other is not? I then usually win that argument

We are not all the same. What people may think of religion is not usually what really happens. As I said before its pretty boring. Today I am taking a service in front of a few people and i am doing it from the BCP to celebrate the anniversary of it. We may get a few more people for this. They will then have a cup of tea and a chat. Go home. Possibly say their prayers each night and read the daily office. Thats about all the negative effect these people will have on the world. That's it they will not be standing in a picket line with plaques saying fags go to hell. They will not going around murdering people in the name of the lord. They will not go around sexually abusing people. Sorry guys were all pretty boring really

14/10/2012 at 07:47

Vicar of course people will still believe it's a choice, people for years have been led by religious notions that you must behave to reserve a place in the after life or face a hell of some description, so of course there will be ongoing reverberations.

That notion (with education) is dwindling and although nothing turns off like a tap it will eventually mean very few people will follow religion and there will probably be a new cult-type following.

You mention the Gay debate, I have to ask why raise it, it's not really relevant.

Also regarding abuse (Physical and Sexual) I know organised religion over the years has accepted it, and protected those responsible, but I'm not aware of it being made compulsory so I would not expect your congregation to go out doing this.

Dark Vader    pirate
14/10/2012 at 08:11

Science is fact...   peer reviewed...  repeatable...  its not a case of belief, its just what happens...  

Religion is a lifestyle choice...  there's nothing to it...   an analogy could be music..  some people like heavy metal and dress in black and leather..  some like jazz and wear cords and polar necks, some like dance etc...   its all just music and personal taste but it doesn't mean anything in the context of the world around us.  Religion, of whatever choice, is the same.  It means nothing.

Science has gradually explained all of those fascinating and remarkable questions that we wanted to know.  Perhaps in future years scientists will discover the answers to those questions that still remain unanswered.   

My worry though is that religion relies not on freedom of choice, but on an almost brainwashing mentality.   In some socities around the world it has gone beyond a lifestyle choice to a demand and expectation...  this is where the extremists become dangerous...  they don't have the intellectual independance to question what they are told..  they just follow the leader...    that is the danger to society...


Dark Vader    pirate
14/10/2012 at 08:43

A frustration for me is that the best human minds that have ever lived (Einstein and Newton to name just two) have devoted their lives and intellect to solving complex questions and yet religious beliefs just disregard this.  We now know so much about the world we live in and this knowledge can be tested and repeated over and over and over.  We know to an fair degree of accuracy about how old the earth is, about geological events that have moved the land masses around (and indeed still do), we know about gravity, how and why plants and animals can survive, we are constantly discovering new plant and animal species.   The list goes on and on...

Our knowledge for what happens outside our little world is alos increasing and astronomers are discovering new facts about the distance space.

It doesn't matter who you, where you live or what you believe.  This is all FACT and is just what happens.

No amount of praying at someone's death bed is going to stop them dying...   there is no heaven or hell or any god at all...   we know how life is created and how it ends.  There doesn't need to be any magical story.

It is frustrating that despite all of this knowledge and advancing science by these amazing people that some people still choose to disregard the facts.  More fool you.  You are wasting your time and your life.


14/10/2012 at 09:03
TheVicar wrote (see)

As for the Gay debate. When somebody says to me being Gay aint right I say point out in the Bible where it states this. They will say leviticus says a man should not lay with a man. Then I say if you read the next few verses it also says man should not wear 2 kinds of thread. So I ask them what their clothes are made out of. After a few seconds they look at me funny and I say why is that rule ignored but the other is not? I then usually win that argument


The only argument here seems to be that we shouln't be using the Bible to tell us how to live.  This Leviticus passage is always used to show how certain instructions are just a bit weird, completely outdated or downright absurd.  How does that help the case for being religious?

The reason people cherry-pick from the Bible is because, deep down, their morality is informed by their humanity, their empathy, and, actually, they are good despite their religion, not because of it.  Hence the exodus of numbers from the Catholic church since the true horrors of the child sex abuse cases came to light.  People's deep-rooted belief systems weren't fundamentally challenged; they were merely disgusted by the acts of the church that was supposed to represent them, and decided they want nothing more to do with it. 

Dark Vader    pirate
14/10/2012 at 09:18

That's a very good point philpib..   

One more point to add, is that beliefs are rather dictated by the upbringing...  so.. being born into a catholic, protestant, islamic, sikh, hindu or whatever other religious bias society will likely have an influence on those people....   and yet, they ignore this simple fact and argue against science and indeed other religions...


14/10/2012 at 09:34

14/10/2012 at 14:20

I always invite Jehova Witnesses into my house when they're doing their field work.(I kid you not, I fill em up with tea and keep them away from my neighbours, bladders at bursting point out they go, home) On one occasion we didn't even get around to religion. I'm aware they detest Catholics. I do point out that they are simply teaching other people how to live in a more civilised manner. Even they don't have an answer when I mention that they could do all of these things without a God being anywhere around. Whenever I mention science to these people they always insist that the scientists don't know everything. I assume that waving their book of stories around means that they (the J'W's)do. At the very least, they're of the opinion that, 'We know something, you don't'. Haven't seen them for ages.

Edited: 14/10/2012 at 14:26
15/10/2012 at 01:13

I'll start believing in a god when there's no more pain, suffering, war, hatred and death in the world. 

15/10/2012 at 06:21
JvR wrote (see)
EKGO wrote (see)

as a kid in the 60s going to Catholic schools that were run by Nuns I was given all manner of punishment including the cane by three different people, Headmaster, class teacher and the head Nun, 

I'm so glad that attitudes have changed in schools and that corporal punishment doesn't happen any more. I never had the cane but I know a few people that got given the cane or the slipper. I'd hate my son or neices to have to go through that.
I wonder how someone would have faired if they had taken their school to court for assault.

I too was at school in the 60's and 70's. Assaults on me by teachers, I can remember most of them, here goes, the rap sheet. From infant school on:

Slapped legs, slapped legs, slapped legs (1st primary school)

Roughed up and thrown to ground, belted around the head(2nd primary school)

Caned, Caned, belted around head with book, belted across face with wet sponge(Secondary school)



15/10/2012 at 06:58


From a very philosophical point of view. Which Im not sure I stand by myself but feel as a believer of a God some elements ring true. Its also an argument that always comes up and I say it to get a reaction.

We are on this planet and the one thing we are told to do is love and enjoy what we have. If their was nothing bad on the earth and everything was amazing and nobody died and nothing bad happened, we would already be in heaven. Pain and suffering makes us re-evaluate what is important to us.I know their will be a long list of horrific things that I cannot justify but even Atheist philosophers who talk about a God if a God existed would say something similar but more eloquent than I.

Now I know this will get slated but its worth lobing in there

15/10/2012 at 07:01

Also just to add that God will eliminate all suffering once somebody dies as our life continues after this one. So what seems like suffering in this life will cease when we die but in the next life all will be good.

I cling to this as my mum is slowly dying of Multiple Myeloma-It brings me much comfort and at the end of the day what is wrong with that?

15/10/2012 at 08:55
Rickster wrote (see)

I'll start believing in a god when there's no more pain, suffering, war, hatred and death in the world. 

You will "start believing in God" implies you currently dont believe in God. Surely then, all the "pain, suffering, war, hatred and death in the world" must be caused by man, yet you, who doesnt believe in God, seems to be blaming God for all the bad things that happen ? It seems to me that when a loved one dies a lot of relatives blame God for taking one of the good people away and not doing anything to prevent illness & diseases etc, and that does include believers in God as well. But you very rarely hear them thank God for when something good happens in their lifes.

15/10/2012 at 10:50
Flimby wrote (see)

So I conclude from my origional post that Jimmy ran 3:30 marathons which to me (who has yet to attempt one) Is a very respectable time.

As for all the other posts with nothing to do with his running (this is runners world after all) The guy has passed away. Never to my knowledge have I heard anything contraversial in the media about J.S & he isn't here to defend himself!

The  guy was perhaps a little excentric & reclusive but it gives no one the right to speculate on here or anywhere without concrete evidence. Think of all the good he did for charity & putting a smile on many peoples faces over the years.



Flimby wrote (see)

It was I who did the original post........

What can I say, he might had done a lot for for charity but it was no doubt a front for the recent revelations. A childhood hero of mine no more. Pity he is not around to spend his twilight years rotting away in jail.......


TheVicar wrote (see)

Also just to add that God will eliminate all suffering once somebody dies as our life continues after this one.

What is your authority for this proposition?

You have no authority, you have no proof.

Don't say things are true that you have absolutely no way of knowing.


15/10/2012 at 10:54

No mr unstoppable sex machine, he's saying that man is responsible for war and death (though not all pain, accidents disease). he's asking why should he believe in a god or gods that condone these things? Ignoring the the lack of physical evidence for a supreme being, on a philosophical level it's illogical that a an omnipotent being who apparently loves us all would let us suffer just so we could appreciate heaven? And if we are going to go to heaven and everything will be perfect for eternity, why do we need to through this reality, what's the point? Or is it that heaven is a crutch for people who've fallen on hard times in this realm and need something to believe in to cope with the reality of our basically futile existance?

The Vicar, yes sorry to hear about your mum too, that really is horrible for you and your family. My auntie had a a child with cerebral palsy, she turned to god, even as far as going to faith healers, unsurprisingly my cousin was never "cured" nearly 50 years later where has it got them?

Sit in a bath of baked beans for 5 years, run 100 marathons in a 100 days, do something to raise money for research, do the research yourself if you're clever enough, do something real. Best wishes.

15/10/2012 at 10:59

Lardarse - where does it say God condones these things ?

15/10/2012 at 11:05

It doesn't, you're missing the point. What's the point of having a god or gods if they do nothing for you? if they don't help you in your time of need?

That's what rickster is saying, god by definition is omnipotent yet he allows all this suffering (considering his omnipotence allowing is the same as condoning), so why should anyone believe in such a malevolent being?

15/10/2012 at 11:13

Gods do something for some people surely ? Whilst it might not be something physical that you can see e.g. make someone better who is dying, it gives a lost of people a lot of comfort to know that their loved ones are going to another place ? So, what about all the tens of thousands of people who receive medical help from doctors and nurses etc. God put those people on earth (doctors and nurses) and made them the type of person they are to want to study to help people ? It seems to me that whenever things go wrong people jump on the 'it's Gods fault' bandwagon yet when it's the reverse it's a case of science taking all the credit.

Lardarse, do you believe in a God ? How do you think we all came to be here ?

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