Fate/Destiny... do you believe our paths are already made..?

21 to 36 of 36 messages
29/10/2012 at 10:22

I think if you strictly look at physics, it is clear that we cannot have free will.

However it is also clear that we do.

29/10/2012 at 10:28
I remember at school being given the question in pure physics a bumble bee could not fly, so what did it tell me, my answer was that we don't know as much as we believe we do, and it still applies.
29/10/2012 at 10:48

@EKGO - that's the thing with science - it doesn't have all the answers.

As for the bumble bee... clicky

29/10/2012 at 11:09

This is a development of the car crash story above; but when I think back to the series of events that caused me to meet my wife  it is amazing to think that such a momentous event could turn on a series totally insignificant events. The question being would we still have met if they did not happen? The person who died in the car crash made an insignificant decision that led to his death..... Many people talk about how they missed trains, planes (and how annoyed they were) only to hear that the train, plane crashed; family members talk of the events that led to the death of a loved one. It would be interesting to think of having parallel lives that you could dip into now and again to see how decisions you made in the past have influenced your life today; where destiny is concerned they should all be the same? But would they? As far as bumble bees are concerned they fly like 'Chinook' helicopters do!

29/10/2012 at 11:14

"However it is also clear that we do."

No, It's clear that we believe that we do, which ain't the same.

Unless you redefine free will as the belief that we have a choice. 

Bionic Ironwolf    pirate
29/10/2012 at 11:15

SideBurn - I can relate to your story. I met my husband at a party that had been re-scheduled from the previous week. If the party had taken place as originally planned he would not have been there, he was in Spain!

29/10/2012 at 11:19
Ian M wrote (see)

"However it is also clear that we do."

No, It's clear that we believe that we do, which ain't the same.

Unless you redefine free will as the belief that we have a choice. 

Even that's a bit dodgy isn't it?  How can you be certain that the initial thought in your brain leading to an apparently free choice being actioned wasn't itself pre-determined?

29/10/2012 at 11:25
Bionic Ironwolf wrote (see)

SideBurn - I can relate to your story. I met my husband at a party that had been re-scheduled from the previous week. If the party had taken place as originally planned he would not have been there, he was in Spain!

That's the thing though isn't it.  A zillion apparently insiginificant events needed to have occurred for you to have met your husband.  For example, your husband's great-great-great-great-great-great-great... grandparents bumping into each other 498 years ago in a candle shop.  If your husband and his ancestors had never been born you'd probably just be having the same thoughts about being married to a different person, and whether that was a question of fate.  It's just an accident, but one which takes on significance as it shapes the rest of your life.

29/10/2012 at 11:37

But with fate the question is would the event have happened anyway but in a slightly different way? In my case, my wives' family nearly emigrated to Australia but were prevented by a ship-wreck! If is was not for a bit of wind and rain, would I have felt the need to tie some corks to a hat, sing waltzing Matilda and jump on a plane?

29/10/2012 at 12:18

Bionic Ironwolf - don't forget - it would be more weird if coincidences didn't happen.

29/10/2012 at 12:39
Ian M wrote (see)

"However it is also clear that we do."

No, It's clear that we believe that we do, which ain't the same.

Unless you redefine free will as the belief that we have a choice. 

Well, good point.  Actually it's very hard to provide an objective definition of free will. My opinion is that by any reasonable definition, we do, but I'm not sure I can prove it.  (Also, I can't come up with a reasonable way to define it such that it could exist, and we don't have it! )

29/10/2012 at 12:41
PhilPub wrote (see)
Ian M wrote (see)

"However it is also clear that we do."

No, It's clear that we believe that we do, which ain't the same.

Unless you redefine free will as the belief that we have a choice. 

Even that's a bit dodgy isn't it?  How can you be certain that the initial thought in your brain leading to an apparently free choice being actioned wasn't itself pre-determined?

Oh, it clearly is! Or else random, and being subject to randomness doesn't sound like "free will" to me either.

29/10/2012 at 15:10

I think the concept of free will largely stems from the impression that our inner voice feels a step removed from reality and thus able to observe and respond with a detached independence, but unless you subscribe to the concept that the inner voice is super-natural and beyond the limits of the universe as we percieve it, then that voice is as random/response driven as everything else in the universe.

29/10/2012 at 15:38
I agree and totally understand that science is limited, pity a few more of our scientists didn't realise it
29/10/2012 at 16:25

@EKGO - science it limitless.  Our understanding of it, on the other hand, ...

31/10/2012 at 10:39

Interesting discussion. Itsometimes seems that the more we discover abour the world, the less free will (whatever that may be) we have.

Often when we talk about free will we seem to be actually talking about taking responsibility, and therefore accepting consequences. And if the consequences seem to be beneficial then we are more likely to want to say 'I did that'.


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