gun or chip time to win

which is the fairest way

1 to 20 of 105 messages
13/12/2010 at 07:41

Been having a discussion after a 10k road race yesterday where 1st lady crossed the line before the 2nd lady, but the 2nd lady started further back in the field and ran faster on the chip than the 1st lady who was obviously faster on the gun time.

The 1st lady finisher didnt have many around her and sauntered in 4places in front in 39min 24sec gun time & 39min 18sec chip time

the 2nd lady finisher raced for a few miles with a group of 6 blokes in 39min 26sec gun time & 39min 12sec chip time

Who should have got the 1st prize?

first over the line or the fastest runner.

I say it is the first over the line because you RACE the field around you and run at that pace and it is a race not a time trial.

someone else says should be the fastest chip time because that is performance on the day.

Is first past the post fair as is in race rules?

or should we now start using chip time to determine actual result?

kittenkat    pirate
13/12/2010 at 07:46

This is a difficult one, the fastest runner is proved by chip time but the first over the line is first over the line.

All I would say is that the woman who crossed second, should have known to start further up the field.

That might sound harsh, but if everyone knows it goes on gun time, look after yourself!

13/12/2010 at 07:48
2nd lady should have started further up then! First over the line wins the race.  Your distinction between a race and a time trial sums it up perfectly. 
13/12/2010 at 07:49
Gun time, first over the line wins. Otherwise someone could turn up after everyone else has finished and still claim to have 'won'! As you say, starting in the correct place and working the field are all part of race tactics.
13/12/2010 at 07:50
At the pointy end there's only a few seconds difference if any - where *I* run there's a heck of a difference in a big race. My gun time for the last half I did was about five minutes slower than my chip time - as far as I'm concerned I ran those 13.1 miles in the chip time, and THAT's my PB.
seren nos    pirate
13/12/2010 at 07:56

JJ for PB's yes always take the chip time.......................

But for the award of winning the race then its definitely first over the line....

13/12/2010 at 07:57

There's no question whatsoever - the winner is the first on Gun Time as it has been since time began.

Chip times have got absolutely nothing to do with race positions, they are for personal information only.

13/12/2010 at 07:58
Yes, and down among the mass of runners, I am quite happy to be able to claim a victory over another runner if my chip time was faster than theirs even if they finished before I did, but even there, the results will rightly show the finishers in order of going over the line.
13/12/2010 at 07:59
Jj wrote (see)
At the pointy end there's only a few seconds difference if any - where *I* run there's a heck of a difference in a big race. My gun time for the last half I did was about five minutes slower than my chip time - as far as I'm concerned I ran those 13.1 miles in the chip time, and THAT's my PB.
but is that not PERSONAL & nothing to do with the race positions. PBs are why chip time was introduced. not everyone has garmins to measure their personal times.
13/12/2010 at 08:46
[blink]

goodness, anyone would think I was arguing! ¦oD
13/12/2010 at 08:48

Racing at the pointy end is not just about who can run fastest.  It's also about tactics.  Look at the way the elite althletes run at the London Marathon.  They're keeping an eye on each other, waiting for someone to make a move, planning when they should speed up.  Yes, I'm sure they'd like to get a PB but more important is beating the other runners.  That means the places and prizes must be done by gun time.

   

Chip timing is for the rest of us, so we get an accurate indication of how quickly we've made it round the course.

13/12/2010 at 08:50
What chip timing has done is make it a race for those at the front, but a time trial for everybody else. Unless advertised otherwise however, these events are still races where first across the line wins, and part of the skill of racing is putting yourself in the right position at the start.
13/12/2010 at 11:42

Yep, first over the line wins.  The lady who came 2nd will know better next time to start up front and hopefully get her first place.

I find it strange that the question even needs to be asked though.   I see lots of people on race reports etc (not aimed at the OP) moaning about having to over take slower runners etc, that it makes me think that most people would be happier doing time trials rather than racing.  It's great that more and more people want to take part in running, but do people miss the point about races being, well, races?

13/12/2010 at 11:51

Almost time for Chips

Cheerful Dave    pirate
13/12/2010 at 11:54
M.ister W wrote (see)

Racing at the pointy end is not just about who can run fastest.  It's also about tactics.  Look at the way the elite althletes run at the London Marathon.  They're keeping an eye on each other, waiting for someone to make a move, planning when they should speed up.  Yes, I'm sure they'd like to get a PB but more important is beating the other runners.  That means the places and prizes must be done by gun time.

Agreed, and that's why at VLM championship runners don't get a chip time, only a gun time.  Around 10 seconds difference if you're at the back of the championship pen.

However, if you happen to be in one of the super-vets categories (say >50), prizes are awarded on the basis of chip time, not gun time. 

13/12/2010 at 11:55
Badly Drawn Blo-ho-ho-hoke wrote (see)

Yep, first over the line wins.  The lady who came 2nd will know better next time to start up front and hopefully get her first place.

I find it strange that the question even needs to be asked though.   I see lots of people on race reports etc (not aimed at the OP) moaning about having to over take slower runners etc, that it makes me think that most people would be happier doing time trials rather than racing.  It's great that more and more people want to take part in running, but do people miss the point about races being, well, races?

Oh yes indeed - I wonder if its part of people generally getting more selfish - so they dont think about the combined event only their time matters or just because races are mostly bigger now so they think only of racing those around them at the line rather than playing tactics...

Weirdly the one place where you get great tactics practice is parkrun which we all know isnt a race and is a time trial

13/12/2010 at 12:27

It's very hard for female runners to know where to place themselves on the start line at races. There mayonly be 3  female finishers in the first 100 finishers for example.

The first lady across the line in the above race may have positioned herself too far forward, is that cheating? Should women who stand a chance of placing start at the front or near front of the race, in front of men who will be able to run a faster race but not place, or should they position themselves according to where they will finish?

There is an unspoken etiquette re starting places - sometimes it is loudly spoken but often ignored. We don't all have a fair chance because we don't all follow the same rules. We all know people who start at the front of every race yet finish well toward the rear and vice versa.

I also think it's somewhat a hollow victory if you are placed first but know that you didn't win with the fastest time. Chip timing has given us more accurate times, it also means the start of races are often slower as we are all bunched up trying to pass through a narrow channel. 

I really am just nit picking. Chip timing is changing races. If you want a pb now you shouldn't need to start at the front of a race if you are going to place elsewhere, but it still happens.

If it's first past the post it's first past the post. I do see it as a fairly pointless ecercise though as it now seems winning is totally meaningless.

13/12/2010 at 12:43

You can argue that the woman who was first on the gun time placed herself to far up the field just as easily as saying the chip time winner placed herself to far down the field.

For me chip time wins.

Edited: 13/12/2010 at 12:44
13/12/2010 at 13:08

It might for you, but for any race run under UKA rules it doesnt:
http://www.runbritain.com/static/pdfs/rdp/road_race_handbook.pdf

See page 37 re: race timings

When a chip (transponder) timing system is used, the official time is that of ‘Gun Start’, although
published results may show, in cases, both Gun and Chip results if desired.

The important bit is in bold.

And on page 38:

Even though chip timing may be used, it is still customary for the key race positions to be
determined on a ‘first-past-the post basis’.

13/12/2010 at 13:23
F1 anology.
Alonso starts on pole, hamilton starts in 6th.
Alonso is first past the line but hamilton races faster but finishes 2nd due to not passing alonso. Should hamilton win?
No because he was second across the line
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