Hillisborough

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seren nos    pirate
13/09/2012 at 16:02
Flat Foo..ted wrote (see)

Brought to account??, what would have them do to an 80+ year old woman??, public flogging, another apology

I believe if she wasn't suffering from dementia then she should have been brought to account.........it was evil what she did.......................

But I do think we should not be paying here every year now...............Ex prime minsters get paid payments as they have to still deal with questions regarding their time in office extra........as she can not answer any questions for many years.why on earth do we pay her

13/09/2012 at 16:17

I know I stopped watching football in 1985 when watching the dreadful events unfolding at the Heysel Stadium when so many Italian supporters died - Football never seemed the same after that - that one set of supporters could do that to another at what should have been a joyful occasion.

13/09/2012 at 18:03

As with all of these things, it is probably importnat to remember the historical context. Britain had a very different culture in 1985. Watching football was very different as an experience.

That said...... I remember watching it unfold on the TV. The feeling of disbelief was overwhelming, along with the other emotion.. why does someone not do something? We could see that the fans had to be let out of the cages.... perhaps it was more difficult at ground level.

Like many I am shocked to hear that 41 could have been saved.

I am also shocked that so many have lied to cover these things up.

I don't see an issue here. In any other walk of life criminal charges would be brought, and those in the frame would have been suspended from duty, if still serving. We need answers for:

  • Those repsonsible for criminal negligence on the day, and into the evening
  • Those who deliberately peverted the course of justice.

Well done Liverpool ( the city not just the club) for the dogged perserverence and dignity which you have shown.

13/09/2012 at 19:26

Why go there.

JPenno    pirate
13/09/2012 at 19:36
Colin please clarify what you mean, why go to hillsborough or why raise these issues?
13/09/2012 at 19:37
A lot to take in if you read it all.



Since moving to Sheffield 5 years ago, I've been amazed at how much some of the Wednesday fans I know blame Liverpool for the disaster. Normally these fellas are pretty rational and well-travelled football fanatics but I shall be interested in what they make of the findings and of their club's apology yesterday.



However, I've also chatted to a local who worked on the Cook report who tried to get the truth out of Dukinfield and he told me some of the things that
were only revealed yesterday so I' m not surprised at the findings. I think the lack
of a safety certificate ought to fall on the F.A.'s shoulders not SWFC or Sheffield council; yes, they ought to have had one but the FA were willing to go on sending semis to Sheffield in the knowledge that safety was questionable.

However, the ultimate blame rests on the shoulders of SOuth Yorkshire Police, or at least their commanders. I do suspect that the blame trail will go a lot higher though as the PM at the time and Douglas Herd visited the scene and met with the Police command soon after; I reckon she owed them a favour for the way they set about smashing the miners' strike.
Edited: 13/09/2012 at 19:43
13/09/2012 at 20:14

South Yorkshire Police deliberately lead a massive cover up any serving officer(there won't be many) or retired officer should face the full weight of the law.

But sadly there are idiots like Norman Bettison who will continue to point the finger of blame at fans  in fact rival teams now chant " ITS NEVER YOUR FAULT" at Lpool fans so people like Bettison, Mackenzie who issue apologies through gritted teeth or to protect lucrative media contracts will always have an audience but like teh English defence league ill will  be half witts and the ill informed.

The real disgarce is that Bettison could not keep his mouth shut and for the first time accept critcism. When he was Chief Constable of Merseyside it was a standing joke that he would turn up to the opening of an envelope if the press were there to take his picture and juding by the number of pictures in Wakefield now he hasn't changed 

14/09/2012 at 08:54

Am i right in thinking that corporate manslaughter was only brought in a few years ago, so wouldn't this make any historic charge impossible?

14/09/2012 at 09:19

Only if you're looking specifically at manslaughter but those responsible should feel the full weight of whatever law applies. There have been far too many instances over the years where suspicion has been on the Police and this will open the floodgates, it won't be the last. Maybe then we can start to correct other areas of incompetence in what should be our trusted Police force.

14/09/2012 at 09:58

Corporate manslaughter came into effect 6 April 2008, this would suggest that the police can't be prosecuted under the Act.  

JPenno    pirate
14/09/2012 at 10:43

FF - the info supplies states "

Who is covered by the new offence?

The offence applies to all companies and other corporate bodies, operating in the UK, in the private, public and third sectors. It also applies to partnerships (and to trade unions and employers’ associations) if they are an employer, as well as to Government departments and police forces."

Under section 13 of the Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007 it states that it does apply to the Police as if they were a body corporate (ie a company)

It should therefore apply to the Police, the issue is whether the provisions of the Statutory Instrument allow the offence to be backdated or whether the offence had to be commited after 06/04/08 and on a very quick perusal of the Statutory Instrument I cant find the answer

14/09/2012 at 10:45

I wouldn't expect manslaughter charges anyway, as there appear to be too many reasons for the events and it would be impossible to blame anyone in particular. Also I'm not sure that would do any good going forward, for the future I'd be more interested to see people prosecuted for the cover up, the deceit and the lies. This would constitute serious charges that could be applied to all concerned and serve as a warning.

JPenno    pirate
14/09/2012 at 11:06

There are currently 130 police officers still serving that were on duty that day, far more than I thought, I wonder how many of them are now Shi!!ing themselves about something they were assured would not be an issue 23 years ago (and how many other issues and cover ups will be unearthed in SYP)

14/09/2012 at 11:35

What they did on the day can only be judged as incompetent at worst, I don't think anyone could say it was anything more and that would be a difficult prosecution. You'd either prosecute all or none. The best route would be to prosecute the people who covered it up and who falsified statements. This is clearly wrong and would carry a deserved jail term. 

14/09/2012 at 11:35

I would have thought that the most likely charges would be for Perverting the Course of Justice, which (in theory) carries a maximum of a life sentence. 

What did the picture say on the wall of Warden Norton's office in the Shawshank Redemption at the point he realised his years of corruption had been unearthed? "His judgment cometh and that Right Soon"

 

Edited: 14/09/2012 at 11:41
LIVERBIRD    pirate
14/09/2012 at 12:46

I agree with every single word JP says.

Mr LB was there on that day. He has rarely spoken about it in the last 20 years as he keeps it to himself. It's his coping mechanism. He wrote on his Facebook page on Wednesday..

"those of us who were there KNEW the truth. Now....so do you".

And he lays the blame squarely with the police and ambulance service. Heads should roll.

 

14/09/2012 at 14:39

I agree that heads should roll for the deceipt but I think to pursue people from over 20 years ago for decisions made under pressure and in the prevailing conditions of those days will not achieve succesful prosecutions for manslaughter or lesser charges.  So many of the witnesses of that day will no longer be with us and I mean the football authorities as well as all the emergency services and also supporters who would have made witness statements at the time.

The Taylor Report which was looking at different aspects of that day has at least achieved some really tangible results and just generally the technology available today for use at major stadium events means that the chances of similar tragedies have been greatly reduced.  

The senior figures in the cover up though should be pursued with vigour so that not only is some justice achieved for the events that day but also the authorities know that they ultimately answer to the population.  We sometimes mock the attempts at democracy in emerging countries and yet corruption is still a part of our public life.

14/09/2012 at 14:50

I am a Nottingham Forest supporter and I was there in 1985. Even now when I watch the scenes on TV it brings tears to my eyes and to hear of some of the things the police said the Liverpool supporters were doing makes my blood boil. They accused the supporters of urinating on dying and dead people, of going through their pockets and stealing wallets and other possessions. Imagine the poor relatives having to hear things like that about their loved ones.

I hope all those responsible are identified and are somehow made to pay for the atrosity but I dont know what the answer is but it certainly wont be enough.

God bless all the relatives and Liverpool supporters and good luck with your ongoing battle. 

 

LIVERBIRD    pirate
14/09/2012 at 18:02

I often wonder about the Notts Forest fans. Also there on that hideous day and witnesses to mass death and injury yet rarely heard about, as if it had no impact on them. It clearly did.

Carterusm, I know you will never forget what happened but I hope it doesn't give you sleepness nights now. Justice WILL be done. Scousers have long memories.

15/09/2012 at 07:39

I think your confusing civil law with criminal law Cake, Perverting is criminal, duty of care i think would be more of a civil matter.

Does anyone actually know what was changed in the statements? was it times, actions of police or fans?? could make a big difference.

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