"I apologise that women had to witness this today"

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24/05/2013 at 10:31
Barkles wrote (see)

It may have slipped your notice ladies, but Dave is offering weaker sex...

Oh, not weekly sex then?

Grendel3 wrote (see)

A muslim woman from the area and who witnessed the attack was interviewed on the BBC said that the muslim community was scared and this did not represent Muslims abd I am quite happy to accept that. Yet a radical muslim preacher interviewed on NewsNight was quoted as saying that whilst he was shocked by the footage he refused to condem it. It is, in my opinion, time then for the Muslim communties that are ordinary law abiding citizens to stand up to the preachers.

There are nutters in every society.  I'm sure there are other nations who think we are all like Nick Griffin. 

24/05/2013 at 10:39

The danger is that a one-off act can raise tension and exacerbate underlying distrust on all sides.

24/05/2013 at 11:01

We live in a country where we give ethical treatment to all people regardless of creed, race etc, or at least we try hard to do this.

We are being targeted by groups with significantly less tolerance. One of the problems with an ethical stance is that you run the risk of falling foul of someone with less ethics. Our ethical and fair stance makes it very easy for the Preachers and hate merchants to gain a foothold and to eventually make an impact.

It's a difficult situation to manage, Western Governments and intelligence have always relied upon these people eventually being softened up and de-radicalised by Western life but they seem to have found ways to bring in people marginalised by our society to commit atrocities in their name. We cannot catch the perpetrators on suspicion alone so we have to target the converters and show a little less tolerance in order to protect.   

24/05/2013 at 11:04

Yep - very true RM. It is also clear that the 'old fashioned' idea of having to join a group before you can represent them has gone. I am pretty sure that anyone carrying out their own agenda and claiming to be a member of the IRA or Loyalist paramilitary would have been harshly dealt with.

These days anyone can do anything and claim to be a follower of.. whatever the cause may be.

24/05/2013 at 11:06

I never thought I would think this way but we need zero tolerance to some of the more extreme views and this does include radical preachers. This is the source of the problem.

24/05/2013 at 11:21
Runnin man wrote (see)

"I never thought I would think this way but we need zero tolerance to some of the more extreme views and this does include radical preachers. This is the source of the problem." 

Pontius Pilate 30AD

 

at least credit your sources.

24/05/2013 at 11:26

Anjem Choudary represents Muslims as much as the EDL represent English people. I don't understand why they keep inviting him on to the news, Islam is the second largest religion in the UK so why don't they invite another (or several other) Muslim preachers to give their opinions?

24/05/2013 at 11:27

It's a really fine line, and very difficult not to cross into being to reactionary. 

I don't know... I guess it's easy to sit here taking the moral high ground, if it had been a member of my family I probably would be clawing at the door of their hospital room trying to get to the bleeps... 

But, generally yes, stop hatred speeches that go beyond a certain point, from all sides of the argument not just one side... But deciding where that point is, would be bloody difficult to put down as a legal point which you cannot go past.

Glad I woudln't be the people having to come up with that law.

24/05/2013 at 11:30

"Our ethical and fair stance makes it very easy for the Preachers and hate merchants to gain a foothold and to eventually make an impact."

Well, how do you square the ethics of drone strikes that kill civilians with being fair? And invading sovereign nations based on made-up evidence?

If we were really ethical and fair, and not hypocrites, it would be significantly harder for preachers and hate merchants to gain recruits. All they would have to rail against would be our decadent freedoms and, those do kind of appeal to these fruitloops when they're honest with themselves and are much harder to get murderously angry about.

24/05/2013 at 11:31

I have a MAJOR problem with The Sun proudly putting it's logo on these videos.

Also, the Daily Telegraph ran with this guy's full length picture, with his main message printed in headline type.  Isn't that EXACLTY what these guys wanted?  Doesn't it act as encouragement for others to do the same?

Personally, I find that utterly stupid, sensationalist and disgraceful.

I've never bought the Daily Mirror since it published faked photos of British soldiers "abusing Iraqis"  nearly 10 years.   I think this behaviour from the Sun and the Telegraph are akin.   In fact, I feel quite strongly and might start another thread some time, rather than leaving it buried here.

Edited: 24/05/2013 at 11:33
24/05/2013 at 11:36

Where there is a foreign policy that gets us involved in other countries' affairs there will always be grievance. Our perceived closeness to the US also raises our profile.

That said, I dont know a muslim who expounds any view other than peace. I guess we are striving to have a tolerant, inlcusive society and struggle to comprehend just how someone could be so twisted with hate and still live here.

24/05/2013 at 11:37

RW, right with you on that one.

24/05/2013 at 11:45
xine267 wrote (see)

Anjem Choudary represents Muslims as much as the EDL represent English people. 

I hope not as i reckon a significant minority of English are broadly sympathetic to the EDLs aims if not their means.

But then it wouldn't surprise me if a significant minority of UK Muslims were sympathetic to what I'd view as fairly radical views even of not killing people in the street - just as the IRA were small in numbers but had substantial sympathy amongst a significant minority of Irish at one time.

This problem isn't going to go away in our lifetimes.   Setting up Islamic schools is hardly going to help integration.    As an ideology Islam as it is actually practiced (as opposed to what some people may claim is true Islam) is usually at odds with Western values - misogynistic,ultra conservative etc.  

24/05/2013 at 12:00

Radical views are totally acceptable, if you don't have this you miss a certain type of progress, the preachers who convert people to a fanatical stage (Radicalisation) where murder is acceptable simple have to be stopped, this is beyond a reasonable freedom. 

24/05/2013 at 12:20

Firstly - I would say their sexism is probably not the biggest thing to be concerned about.

Secondly - I think Nicky seems to have hit the nail on the head. It also highlights why any form of nationalism/patriotism etc is a dangerous thing. I personally did not invade Iraq or any other country yet because I live in a nation that did I am theoretically put at risk. Just as these guys presumably have never lived or been to a war torn country - yet think it their duty to protect their fellow believers wherever they are.

In short - I believe 99% of people are in general against any sort of war or conflict - but theres always that 1% who are raising armies or hatred for their own ego trip.

24/05/2013 at 13:08

I don't think any of this would have happened without 24 hour news and media creating hate-fuelled anymosity.

24/05/2013 at 13:44

yes, ban Al Jazeera.

24/05/2013 at 13:50

Popsider - I think there are probably as many interpretations of Islam as there are of Christianity.

What I find ridiculous is the fact that the radicals find it so easy to ignore that there are a lot of Muslims that are more than happy to kill other Muslims.

 

 

24/05/2013 at 13:52

Here:

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestory/2013/05/201352484123205176.html

Go nuts and show me the bits that create hate-fuelled animosity any more than any other mainstream news source.

24/05/2013 at 13:57
Screamapillar wrote (see)

Popsider - I think there are probably as many interpretations of Islam as there are of Christianity.

What I find ridiculous is the fact that the radicals find it so easy to ignore that there are a lot of Muslims that are more than happy to kill other Muslims. 


Don't worry - the radicals don't ignore that, they are very keen on killing muslims (the wrong kind of muslims obviously), much keener in fact than they are on killing us. There is a fantastically long tradition of killng each other right back to the split between Shiia and Sunni in the 7th/8th centuries (or thereabouts) and indeed before.

One of the first Caliphs was killed in a mosque by a religious fundamentalist stabbing him in the head.

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