"I apologise that women had to witness this today"

41 to 60 of 62 messages
24/05/2013 at 14:08

Part of the fault lies with us ramming our doctrines up everyone's noses! Since the Crusades! This isn't news. Back then nobody thought for a second that we'd be living nose-to-tail with each other. 

I'm not saying it's right, but we largely reap what we sow.

24/05/2013 at 14:13

It's complex, but alongside genuine ideological differences, I'd guess that it's things like;

 

Occupying lands full of muslim citizens for decades and or centuries depending on which country you pick.

Meddling in internal politics - see Iran in 1953 for example.

The creation and support of Israel by displacing millions of arabs, including the partitioning of one of the holiest cities in Islam.

Maintaining military bases in muslim countries used to kill other muslims. (bases in Saudi for the first gulf war for instance)

Drone strikes that kill women and children.

 

 

All of this seems to pale into insignificance against whether you believe that Ali was the rightly guided caliph and rightful successor to Mohammed or not.

 

Let's get things straight - I'm not making excuses for anything but we shouldn't be so surprised when some people hate us. These are people capable of killing over something that happened 1300 years ago.

24/05/2013 at 14:18
JMopper wrote (see)

Firstly - I would say their sexism is probably not the biggest thing to be concerned about.

 

Actually I think it is a very important thing to be concerned about; it underpins a view of the world which 'ranks' people and accords importance to their views according to that ranking priest, other men, boys, women, girls - in that order.  (Each has a specific monetary value in Islamic law, by the way, as does livestock.)

It allows the perpetuation of a misogynist, fundamentalist world view as each generation of uneducated women brings up the next generation of narrow minded bigots.

There is also evidence (that I can't be @rsed to google) that indicates that not educating women is highly correlated with ongoing poverty, and that educating women is a major factor in raising living standards, as their spending priorities appear to be fundamentally different than men's. 

But hey ho, let's not worry about sexism.  After all it never did us any harm .

 

 

24/05/2013 at 14:21

Nicky you make a good point about potential reasons for why this happens, which (although probably not intentionally) you conveniently excuse those who carry these things out, also your comments are very factual, however you don't offer any thoughts on a solution, vote Liberal? by any chance.

24/05/2013 at 14:23
LouiseG wrote (see)
JMopper wrote (see)

Firstly - I would say their sexism is probably not the biggest thing to be concerned about.

 

Actually I think it is a very important thing to be concerned about; it underpins a view of the world which 'ranks' people and accords importance to their views according to that ranking priest, other men, boys, women, girls - in that order.  (Each has a specific monetary value in Islamic law, by the way, as does livestock.)

It allows the perpetuation of a misogynist, fundamentalist world view as each generation of uneducated women brings up the next generation of narrow minded bigots.

There is also evidence (that I can't be @rsed to google) that indicates that not educating women is highly correlated with ongoing poverty, and that educating women is a major factor in raising living standards, as their spending priorities appear to be fundamentally different than men's. 

But hey ho, let's not worry about sexism.  After all it never did us any harm .

 

 

Sorry Louise but if you get hot under the collar regarding sexism over the murder of a soldier on British soil you're off track

24/05/2013 at 14:28
Nick Windsor 4 wrote (see)
LouiseG wrote (see)
JMopper wrote (see)

Firstly - I would say their sexism is probably not the biggest thing to be concerned about.

 

Actually I think it is a very important thing to be concerned about; it underpins a view of the world which 'ranks' people and accords importance to their views according to that ranking priest, other men, boys, women, girls - in that order.  (Each has a specific monetary value in Islamic law, by the way, as does livestock.)

It allows the perpetuation of a misogynist, fundamentalist world view as each generation of uneducated women brings up the next generation of narrow minded bigots.

There is also evidence (that I can't be @rsed to google) that indicates that not educating women is highly correlated with ongoing poverty, and that educating women is a major factor in raising living standards, as their spending priorities appear to be fundamentally different than men's. 

But hey ho, let's not worry about sexism.  After all it never did us any harm .

 

 

Sorry Louise but if you get hot under the collar regarding sexism over the murder of a soldier on British soil you're off track

You seem to have entirely missed my point, but not to worry.

24/05/2013 at 14:33

Louise - Not at all I can see that if we spent our vast amounts of foreign policy money on the education of women in the third world it would be a mind-blowingly different place, but Sexism in this instance has no connection with the Murder yesterday or the actions of those filmed, and it detracts from the seriousness of what happened.

24/05/2013 at 14:37
Nick Windsor 4 wrote (see)

Louise - Not at all I can see that if we spent our vast amounts of foreign policy money on the education of women in the third world it would be a mind-blowingly different place, but Sexism in this instance has no connection with the Murder yesterday or the actions of those filmed, and it detracts from the seriousness of what happened.

I'll refer you back to the heading of the thread then, so you can work out the connection.

 

 

 

24/05/2013 at 14:40

I think Louise has argued pretty well why it does matter and why it is connected IMO.

24/05/2013 at 14:44
LouiseG wrote (see)
Nick Windsor 4 wrote (see)
LouiseG wrote (see)
JMopper wrote (see)

Firstly - I would say their sexism is probably not the biggest thing to be concerned about.

 

Actually I think it is a very important thing to be concerned about; it underpins a view of the world which 'ranks' people and accords importance to their views according to that ranking priest, other men, boys, women, girls - in that order.  (Each has a specific monetary value in Islamic law, by the way, as does livestock.)

It allows the perpetuation of a misogynist, fundamentalist world view as each generation of uneducated women brings up the next generation of narrow minded bigots.

There is also evidence (that I can't be @rsed to google) that indicates that not educating women is highly correlated with ongoing poverty, and that educating women is a major factor in raising living standards, as their spending priorities appear to be fundamentally different than men's. 

But hey ho, let's not worry about sexism.  After all it never did us any harm .

 

 

Sorry Louise but if you get hot under the collar regarding sexism over the murder of a soldier on British soil you're off track

You seem to have entirely missed my point, but not to worry.

I agree - it is a concern, but for the minute the focus should probably be on that these individuals and perhaps others with the same mindset - think its ok to attack and kill seemingly randomly for ideology.

Nick - I'm also a wooly liberal - though its not my job to come up with solutions - here's some suggested solutions though; having a more consistent foreign policy which is divorced from whether countries export us oil or not. Engaging and giving a voice to the muslim (in this instance) community in this country. Controversial one here - but actually give a platform to the fundamentalists and knock them off it properly with the absurdity of their own convictions. Proper secularism - get the church out of the house of lords (and do away with the royals whilst we're at it). going back to foreign policy - lets forget the days of empire and stop trying to be a big player on the scene. Lets also invest in some power sources that dont rely so much on some of the most unequal and unstable countries in the land, also all the stuff to promote more equality here - taxing the rich properly etc.

Theres no instant solution unfortunately. Short of sticking every single man, woman and child in individual cells.

24/05/2013 at 14:52
Runnin man wrote (see)

Radical views are totally acceptable, if you don't have this you miss a certain type of progress, the preachers who convert people to a fanatical stage (Radicalisation) where murder is acceptable simple have to be stopped, this is beyond a reasonable freedom. 

I suspect that if anyone is actually doing this then there's an arguable case for conspiracy. But they're probably not. I fear what you're arguing for, unwittingly, is some sort of blanket ban on free speech. If we're actually opposing these people on the basis of values, then the freedom to say things other people might consider upsetting is one of those values.

24/05/2013 at 14:57

Incidentally, this is worth a read, especially given that the Taliban are keen to keep women in a distinctly third-rate position in society (there's the sexism link!)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/24/michael-adebolajo-ignorance-afghanistan-al-qaida

24/05/2013 at 14:59
Nick Windsor 4 wrote (see)

Nicky you make a good point about potential reasons for why this happens, which (although probably not intentionally) you conveniently excuse those who carry these things out, also your comments are very factual, however you don't offer any thoughts on a solution, vote Liberal? by any chance.


If you think my post is both factual and excuses those actions, then they are factually excused in your mind. I do not excuse the action, which was vile, villainous, and not in accordance with any reasonable ideology regardless of its source.

What I am trying to do is explain a motive - "pure evil" or a "twisted mind" not really giving any insight into how we might go about preventing this kind of thing in the future. Men (and women), capable of rational thought, are being persuaded that this kind of action is not only acceptable, but laudable.

A mad man would have killed bystanders, been less discriminating, a twisted mind might have seen enemies everywhere. These two perceived a real difference between agents of the state and citizens, had an explanation for their actions and carried out a plan. You don't fight against that by writing them off as madmen.

Are they sick fuckers who I was quite happy to see get shot on a news website? Yes.

Need I offer a solution? I don't have one. The ones currently suggested/used aren't really working though. Restricting our own liberties probably isn't a good start.

And no, I don't vote at all generally. Almost no point where I live.

24/05/2013 at 15:00
Peter Collins wrote (see)
Runnin man wrote (see)

Radical views are totally acceptable, if you don't have this you miss a certain type of progress, the preachers who convert people to a fanatical stage (Radicalisation) where murder is acceptable simple have to be stopped, this is beyond a reasonable freedom. 

I suspect that if anyone is actually doing this then there's an arguable case for conspiracy. But they're probably not. I fear what you're arguing for, unwittingly, is some sort of blanket ban on free speech. If we're actually opposing these people on the basis of values, then the freedom to say things other people might consider upsetting is one of those values.


For me - it has very little to do with religion, we all know christianity says turn the other cheek, islam is the religion of peace etc.

This is about young men wanting to be violent and finding any excuse to do so. Same as football hooliganism, same as EDL, same as any other excuse for violence.

Why do they do this? Who knows; inequality, no sense of worth, no place in society, perceived loss of face, pride, tribal mentalism? Infact tribalism is definitely important in those 3 examples - all take away any individual identity.

24/05/2013 at 15:04
Nicky McNamerson wrote (see)
What I am trying to do is explain a motive - "pure evil" or a "twisted mind" not really giving any insight into how we might go about preventing this kind of thing in the future. Men (and women), capable of rational thought, are being persuaded that this kind of action is not only acceptable, but laudable..

Again - think you've struck on something important.

There probably is no such thing as an 'evil person' just 'evil acts' and the important thing is to figure out why people do evil things. Just condeming them forever doesnt help anyone.

 

24/05/2013 at 15:11

This is interesting, especially the concept of "Umma" and perpetual victimhood:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22640614

It is the very opposite of the outlook of the Jewish community who, despite centuries of genuine oppression, managed, somehow, to maintain a positive outlook and to think of themselves as "survivors" rather than "victims".

Edited: 24/05/2013 at 15:11
24/05/2013 at 15:29

I'd amend that to say "victims of themselves" - the old testament has lots of episodes of God lifting the Jewish nation up, only for them to throw it all away by turning away from him, necessitating God bringing in some handy Egyptians/Babylonians/whoever else is passing at the time to enslave or otherwise dominate them.

Of course this is all post-hoc rationalisation for the fact that bad things happened to Gods chosen people.

It's "God is punishing us, and it's all our own fault for being naughty". There are sects of Judaism that see the holocaust in these terms which is just a mind-boggling attitude really.

24/05/2013 at 19:03
Nicky McNamerson wrote (see)

It's complex, but alongside genuine ideological differences, I'd guess that it's things like;

 

Occupying lands full of muslim citizens for decades and or centuries depending on which country you pick.

Meddling in internal politics - see Iran in 1953 for example.

The creation and support of Israel by displacing millions of arabs, including the partitioning of one of the holiest cities in Islam.

Maintaining military bases in muslim countries used to kill other muslims. (bases in Saudi for the first gulf war for instance)

Drone strikes that kill women and children.

Let's get things straight - I'm not making excuses for anything but we shouldn't be so surprised when some people hate us. These are people capable of killing over something that happened 1300 years ago.

You make it sound like this has all been one way !   

There has been as much war and atrocity in the name of Islam as Christianity or Western values.   Not sure you could find a religion that the same couldn't be said of but certainly not those two.

24/05/2013 at 20:16

Snap says: why TF don't we run the country rather than the politicians who trot out trite fucking nonsense at every opportunity because that's what the lowest denominator THINK they want to hear? I'm off to take a chill pill.

24/05/2013 at 22:10

The events what took place reminded me of david howes and Derek wood who were both serving soldiers murdered by many. For those that don't know this happened in 1988 in ireland, they drove into a funeral and one side thought they were initially loyalists. They were then dragged, put in a taxi and driven away, stripped, tortured, stabbed and shot, the priest who tried to help them was at risk of being shot himself, many people took part in their demise, 

 

I guess what I am trying to say is people will always find a reason to justify the means, there will always be people who can be 'brainwashed', you only have to look at Nigeria    

Where parents torture their children because they have been told by a pastor they are a witch! 

 

What is the world coming to! 

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