If we all lived within our means and said no to debt..

surely it is a good thing

81 to 100 of 143 messages
Dave The Ex- Spartan    pirate
06/05/2011 at 11:54
STU - wrote (see)
JW - yes the media encourages us to keep consuming and keep wanting. We consume too much.

Yet again you presume to answer for the whole planet !!!  You may well consume too much, But you have no right to say the rest of us do

(Waits being called a Nazi again)

06/05/2011 at 12:04

don't be daft DTXS - I am talking of mankind in general and from a sociological perspective. You are talking from an individualistc perspective

Of course I am just a  weak ill informed naive soul that swallows anything that is put in front of him. My education and lesson learned to always question stuff has led to just that.

Edited: 06/05/2011 at 12:06
Dave The Ex- Spartan    pirate
06/05/2011 at 12:06
STU - wrote (see)

don't be daft DTXS - I am talking of mankind in general

So you do think you are God !

06/05/2011 at 12:07

Stu thanks but i have listened to enough of that video to know i'm not interested in it's theories or conspiracies.

STU - wrote (see)
JW - yes the media encourages us to keep consuming and keep wanting. We consume too much. We have to consume food to sustain us and we all need shelter etc. Great to have stuff to help us communicate  and travel and move people and goods around. We have the technology to make stuff that will last a lifetime but this technology will not be promoted and invested in because the system needs constant regualr consumers. They make stuff that doesn't last in spite of the technology we have. That aint fantasy but a fact. Watch the videos and see what you think after.

This comes back to what we were talking about yesterday and it is abundantly clear that you do not listen (read) to a word anyone else says but ok......

The media may encourage us - thats advertising - but it is up to us to choose whether to be sucked in by everything. If people want to get a loan out to get an Ipad or bigger boobs or the latest VW then all power to them WE ARE NOT ALL THE SAME and you bunching everyone into this group of consumers that according to you have no will power of our own and cannot resist buying the latest quilted loo roll cos the koala on the tv tells us to is quite frankly insulting.

And you're right, just cos conspiracy theories exists doesn't mean they're not real but that is why they remain conspiracies as they cannot be proven, it does mean however that the nutters who perpetuate are real and most of them are like you (not calling you a nutter directly btw....although ), they are blinkered, they are inflexible in their views and they refuse to see beyond what they have been told and what fits into their own opinionated views.

06/05/2011 at 12:08

The thing about capitalism is it hinges around people buying shiny things that they don't need. People are told they need shiny things and believe they need them NOW.

It's all very well saying "in the old days we saved for things" but in the old days things were built to last and could be repaired. Nowadays things have built in obsolescence and when they break you have to throw them away. Coupled with the speed that "must have gadget" technology moves you have a nasty situation.

Imagine saving all your money for a Playstation. By the time you've saved for it The PS2 has been and gone and the next biggest thing is the Wii. So you spend your money on that. The next week out comes the PS3.

Get a credit card and you could have bought all 4. House prices rise. You can remortgage your house, pay off your credit card and hey off you go again. Except you are still paying for your PS, PS2, PS3 and Wii and they're all in the bin because the kids have grown up and moved out.

What's the real problem? Keeping up with the Jonses and believing the hype.

Games consoles is one thing but when your boiler, freezer, washing machine and car all break down in the same month and only the car can be fixed (usually the bits have to be replaced).

As has been mentioned debt is not serviceable credit. They're different things.

In the ideal world we would all save like mad until we had 12months mortgage payments in the bank and when emergencies come along we'd pay cash. The problem is/was savings are not paying interest and the money saved is losing value.

In the ideal world there would be a law passed that everything had to last 5 years and be serviceable at the end of those 5 years. More people would be employed in service and repair and less in manufacture. Things would cost more to buy but last longer.

06/05/2011 at 12:08
It aint uncommon to talk about mankind and society you know. We can learn by looking at general trends and finding patterns. We are not just a pick and mix of individuals and that is it-lol
06/05/2011 at 12:11

Tim - I largely agree but would say we need to pass a law that shiney things should last as long as technology can make it This is a real possibility you know.

JW - I am a bit nutty but that is coz I think too much at times-lol -cannot win

I can argue that those who follow and defend the present system close their minds too.

Edited: 06/05/2011 at 12:15
Dave The Ex- Spartan    pirate
06/05/2011 at 12:13
TimR wrote (see)

The thing about capitalism is it hinges around people buying shiny things that they don't need. People are told they need shiny things and believe they need them NOW.

. Coupled with the speed that "must have gadget" technology moves you have a nasty situation.

No one is saying you must have.......   You are being seduced by baubles and trinkets

Years ago, I spent an afternoon educating my daughter on the difference between want and need.

Sadly as a she is a woman, shoes fall into need rather than want

(waits to be called a misogynistic nazi)

Edited: 06/05/2011 at 12:34
06/05/2011 at 12:42

i think largely TimR is in agreement but trying to be diplomatic.

And i hope you're not referring to me there stu, i am very willing to listen to others views, yes I am opinionated but I won't argue about something i know nothing about and nor will i just dismiss peoples views out of hand without having an informed opinion to back them up. I am certainly not defending the present system but then i also belive that TZM is wishful thinking and naive (as i have said) now i know some of what its about.

06/05/2011 at 12:57
Nah Jw   but many do without back up. I try like you but we come from different angles. To me the more you get into TZM the more sense it makes. I initially was dubious until I watched all the big 2 hour video and other stuff. I had to take special note on the technological questions as I am not techie minded . The present system aint good and I do believe we can come up with something better. I really do see the present system collapsing in the next few years but only time will tell that.  I like to back up my opinions but tend to be lazy at times. When in the mood I will quote stuff and give evidence. Anyway I can actually enjoy the debates. The subject is massive too.
Dave The Ex- Spartan    pirate
06/05/2011 at 12:59
STU - wrote (see)
 I initially was dubious until I watched all the big 2 hour
Was that the one you advertised as having naked women in it ?
06/05/2011 at 13:00
not that one -lol
Dave The Ex- Spartan    pirate
06/05/2011 at 13:05
Shame.. I might have been suckered in by trinkets and baubles (boobies ?)
06/05/2011 at 13:08
STU - wrote (see)
JW - yes the media encourages us to keep consuming and keep wanting. We consume too much. We have to consume food to sustain us and we all need shelter etc. Great to have stuff to help us communicate  and travel and move people and goods around. We have the technology to make stuff that will last a lifetime but this technology will not be promoted and invested in because the system needs constant regualr consumers. They make stuff that doesn't last in spite of the technology we have. That aint fantasy but a fact. Watch the videos and see what you think after.


Ok, I've only just wandered into this thread and confess I haven't read all the way back.....but my opinion, for what it's worth -

Yes the media encourages us to keep wanting & consuming, but hey I have a brain and can make my own decisions. I would hate to live in a society where there was even more intrusion into what I should and shouldn't do and what I could and could not have. There's already too much of that.

In terms of do we need debt in the economy......yes we do. I'm not an economist, but do have a certain level of understanding. To be able to save and gain interest on the savings, the banks have to earn money through lending to be able to pay money to savers........or do you want a society where there is purely a status quo?  Also, with an ever increasing population, ignoring wanting the latest gadget etc, we need to produce more to be able to sustain more people. I mean in terms of essentials like food and water etc. Very few businesses have money at their finger tips to pay for increased production....they need to borrow to invest in capital.

Just my opinion and I've probably been over simplistic and will happily stand corrected

06/05/2011 at 13:14
Dave The Ex- Spartan wrote (see)
TimR wrote (see)

The thing about capitalism is it hinges around people buying shiny things that they don't need. People are told they need shiny things and believe they need them NOW.

. Coupled with the speed that "must have gadget" technology moves you have a nasty situation.

No one is saying you must have.......   You are being seduced by baubles and trinkets

Years ago, I spent an afternoon educating my daughter on the difference between want and need.

That's bang on DTEX

I replaced my washing machine when it became uneconomical to repair. I replaced my deeply unfashionable mobile phone when it stopped working. I still have my prehistoric generation 2 iPod. The battery is wearing out a bit now but it still works  - I'll get a new one when it's finally knackered.

You don't HAVE to be suckered into all this "must have the latest gadget" crap - I am an advertiser's worst nightmare.

06/05/2011 at 13:17

Saffy - the media is pretty subtle in how it promotes stuff and many of us do just swallow a load of stuff and believe we need this and that. A lot of folk have complained here about the young  not knowing the difference between want and "need" and struggling with not getting what they want. Some of us are savvie saffy a great many are not.  What is important in some lives is getting the latest designer item or upgrading their mobile and if they cannot afford to do that they have big style tantrums and do feel deprived. A system that wants you to consume doesn't want you to use your brain and weigh stuff up but loves it when you feel you "need" what it offers.

We can provide all the genuine basic needs and they do not need promoting really -we all will eat and find shelter. A lot of stuff is unnecessary .

Kryten    pirate
06/05/2011 at 13:19

The biggest advantage that rapidly growing economies like China and India have over us at the moment is that they have a large resource of cheap labour. This has been true of most successful economies throughout history, even to the extent of slavery for example in America or the Roman empire. 

So what we need is a resource of cheap labour. I suggest that anyone that misses a credit card payment should have all their possession seized by the state and sold to repay their debts. They should then be taken into ten years of forced servitude working unpaid for the good of our country and fed only gruel and water. Their children could be made to work in Nike sweat shops here in the UK so at least we would be able to get decent running shoes cheaply. 

The boost to the economy should largely be used to reduce the taxes paid by decent hard-working people like me. Anyone that disagrees with this new policy should have their severed head stuck on a spike outside the Tower of London (sorry about that Stu).  

Edited: 06/05/2011 at 13:19
Dave The Ex- Spartan    pirate
06/05/2011 at 13:20
STU - wrote (see)

.  What is important in some lives is getting the latest designer item or upgrading their mobile and if they cannot afford to do that they have big style tantrums and do feel deprived.

back to parental responsibility again (typed on a 4 year old HP lap top)

06/05/2011 at 13:24

You do tend to make a lot of sweeping statements though stu without the facts to back it up. "a great many" just sounds like something out of a tabloid (sorry to keep making that comparison but thats what it reads like).

yeah a lot of stuff IS unnecessary, clearly, but some of us can afford the unnecessary stuff without getting into huge debt, the people that can't but do, well more fool them. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to work out what you can and can't afford, you do have to be greedy though.

KRYTEN FOR PRESIDENT OF THE WORLD!!!

06/05/2011 at 13:24
Screamapillar wrote (see)

You don't HAVE to be suckered into all this "must have the latest gadget" crap - I am an advertiser's worst nightmare.


I think that too screamy . I am an ad man's worse nightmare not you-lol there is a constant pressure on folk and many do fall for all of it. Matbe today's youngsters more than the older generation and maybe its impact is deepening. Ad men prefer you not to think too much.
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