If we all lived within our means and said no to debt..

surely it is a good thing

121 to 140 of 143 messages
Lee the Pea    pirate
06/05/2011 at 14:27


Wondering why the f*** everything needs to be abbreviated?  Can't we just start spelling everything out?  If we're on here wasting time, then we have time to type it out.

06/05/2011 at 14:28
Lee the Pea wrote (see)

SQTMS = Sub-Quality Thread Material Stu?



FMPL - like! (Although hope i don't! erk)

06/05/2011 at 14:29

Wasting time ??

This is Stu's life you are dismissing so readily

06/05/2011 at 14:32
06/05/2011 at 17:01

STU - in answer to your question..... no I don't think that the whole of the nation should avoid credit because many people can manage it.

It's like drink.

 An alcoholic should probably avoid. 

I don't need to.

If you have an addictive personality you probably find many things to become addicted to. I can see that. But it is you and only you that chooses to follow the media crap.   

06/05/2011 at 17:08
I don't agree with you Madge but you answered the question -thanks
06/05/2011 at 20:14

Well, I watched the first "technology" video, where it talks about beaming energy down from geostationary solar panels in space. It mentions a lot of advantages and no disadvantages. Clean safe energy, infinitely renewable, with no greenhouse emissions, no pollution or radioactive waste, etc. Sounds good.

Then I went to wikipedia and read a balanced discussion of the topic, which acknowledges those points, but also considers the costs of putting a (say) 80,000 ton solar power station into orbit, the damage that the fuel of the vast number of rockets to get it up there would do to the upper atmosphere, the capital costs, and so on. They seemed to feel it might be a goer, if we could mine the materials to build it from the moon or the asteroids. Eventually.

I think the tendency of the ZM video to present only one side of the picture, with no mention of costs or timescales, tells me what I need to know. I see they are raising funds, not to build a solar power station, but to make yet another film.

06/05/2011 at 20:17
What baffles me is that you, Stu, who seem to advocate lower consumption and a less materialistic society (and i agree with you totally about that, if not the means to get there) should be supportive of a bunch who seem to be pushing the opposite message of "if we use technology to the max, we can have much more resources and consume much more intensively" american stylee
06/05/2011 at 20:44

Mike  TZM is about using technology to benefit the whole planet and provide what we need in the most sustainable way. It is dead against the consumerism that has blighted the USA and us. Theyt are for the abolishment of "money" for a start.  Please Mike watch one of the videos (I know they are long). Thing is we have technology to craete stuff that will last  and meet the "needs" of all. You got a very wrong picture I am afraid.

I am gonna look for summat for you that will hopefully demonstrate what TZM is truly about.

06/05/2011 at 20:46

here you are Mike off there own webpage

What is The Zeitgeist Movement?
  1. TZM recognises that our current conduct on this planet is unsustainable and advocates a transition into a new framework for society called a Resource Based Economy, as proposed by Jacque Fresco, founder of The Venus Project.
  2. TZM recognises that, through the humane use of technology, we can provide a near abundance of the necessities of life to all of the world's people, and aims to eliminate scarcity in as many areas as possible; creating a system of access rather than property and money.
  3. TZM recognises that our current employment model is outdated and not in line with the advancement of technology, and advocates working towards machine automation in the production of goods and services; removing the need for human labour wherever possible, while maximising efficiency.
  4. TZM recognises that society must have a symbiotic relationship with nature in order to be sustainable and achieve an ecological balance by living in harmony with the earth and not in spite of it.
  5. TZM recognises that nothing less than a complete shift in the way we operate on this planet is required if we wish to avoid social collapse on a global scale.
  6. TZM aims to remove the conditions needed for governments and laws by addressing the root causes of our social problems by creating a more humane environment which through it's design, encourages and necessitates positive human behaviours and actions.
  7. TZM advocates the scientific method applied to society for social concern, arriving at decisions based on statistical data and inferential logic geared towards maximum efficiency of operations, rather than opinions based on self and national interest.
  8. TZM is primarily a social movement, advocating a system that encourages collaboration rather than competition and is based on unity and equality by design; while promoting a global shift in human values which are the most compatible for social sustainability.
  9. TZM is not an institution or a political organization and whilst structured around projects, operates without hierarchy or leaders.
  10. TZM's purpose is to initiate the transition into a Resource Based Economy by spreading awareness of the concept.
06/05/2011 at 20:49
they talk of necessities rather than wants -lol
06/05/2011 at 20:49
Debt is not bad in itself – it’s what people do with debt that causes the problems.

I used to have a slate at my local. The manager knew me and knew I was good for it. Every so often I’d ask for a balance and he’d say things like – ‘Up to seventy quid now son’ and I’d pay him back on pay day with zero interest. Though, if I went fishing and caught some trout I’d let him have them, or if his generator was playing up I’d fix it free of charge – sometimes if a customer got a bit snarky and daft I’d help the manager send the bloke on his way home to sleep it off.

However, consider this scenario – this is where debt becomes problematic.

Say the pub landlord had have sold my debt in little packets to the grocer, the baker, the newspaper seller and the village post office - and let’s say he also sold debt I didn’t yet have but might one day accrue– so I had in actuality 100 units of debt and he sold 5000 units of debt that he imagined I might have in the future. Perhaps I gave the Landlord my watch as collateral and it was worth 100 units and he kept it in his vault for surety.

Say the people he sold the debt to borrowed more money on the strength of that debt and the hope of getting an interest return – and the betting shop decided to open a gambling market on whether the newspaper seller was going to make a profit on my debt and then the bookie deliberately inflated the amount of debt by borrowing shares to make a killing on the market... perhaps he was a little dishonest and sold shares that didn't really exist

Say the grocer has speculated so much of his profits buying the debt that I didn’t yet have that he couldn’t pay his bills and went bankrupt.

Say the post office clerks also decided to sell much more debt than they actually owned or could ever own and paid themselves a whopping great bonus on the strength of it – when the people in the village objected to this rip off, the clerks threatened to close the post office down.

Say I lost my job and told the landlord that I couldn’t pay the principle debt I originally took out back anymore– what do you think the result would be? – a huge loss of confidence in the system, chaos, absolute financial meltdown. Everyone would want their collateral back from the original source - the landlord. - there would be a run of people demanding money that didn't in fact exist. People would stop lending, people would stop buying, money would stop moving the whole economy would grind to a shuddering halt, industry would stop, the cash machines would go empty - civil strife would break out

In our village it got so bad that the shopkeepers had to raid the villager’s bank accounts to keep solvent and then insisted that the villagers live frugally and accept cuts to their standard of living from now on – mostly through no fault of their own. (The post office clerks still enjoyed their massive bonuses though – even though the post office was now owned by the villagers)

Welcome to the credit crunch and great bank bailout – because what I’ve described is largely what happened a couple of years ago but on a much larger scale (More or less)

And all because the landlord got greedy and had no checks and balances to curb his rapacious behaviour.

Capitalism is great – capitalism works - capitalism gets things done - but capitalism needs to be managed by the people who we vote for in our interests as the electorate not in the interest of the financial elite– because largely our interests are not congruent. Somewhere along the way we’ve forgotten that message and every now and again capitalism kicks us squarely in the arse to remind us.

06/05/2011 at 21:01
Corinthian wrote (see)
 - but capitalism needs to be managed by the people who we vote for in our interests as the electorate not in the interest of the financial elite– because largely our interests are not congruent.

Can you see the situation getting better or worse Corinth.?  I can only see a financial elite continuing doing what it is doing regardless of the rest of us tbh. I cannot see a time when they will really start listening. They demand we consume with scant regard to our planet  and world poverty. If us humans cannot create a  better system than that, I will hang my head in shame about  being human  . TZM at least considers the planet and puts human needs squarely where they belong - in first place.

Edited: 06/05/2011 at 21:03
06/05/2011 at 21:03
Look, Stu, it's the "planned economy" and abolition of money again. We know who that is.
06/05/2011 at 21:09
Stu - it seems cyclical, we're like that pube circling the plug hole and when we eventually gurgle down the drain something else will emerge in its place.

I've no idea what it will be - and to be honest, I don't really give a shit, because I'll be worm food by then
06/05/2011 at 21:11

mike - I would really like you look deeper into it with an open mind  which I know you generally have. It is not perfect but nothing humanly produced is. The  good thing is , the focus is squarely on human needs and the sustainability of the planet. Nothing inherently wrong with technology -it can be used for good or "evil". We tend to invest in technology to destroy people or mooch around a distant rock. Let us look after the earth and its inhabitants please!! That is what I say.

Nowt inherently wrong in a planned economy it depends what the plan is and  what the plans are based on and who or what determines the carrying out. We can use our scientific (social and physical) to be the determinants of what is done. Any vagueries (and there will be some-lol) will be researched furter. Decisions can be based on that.

Edited: 06/05/2011 at 21:23
06/05/2011 at 21:13
Corinthian wrote (see)
Stu - it seems cyclical, we're like that pube circling the plug hole and when we eventually gurgle down the drain something else will emerge in its place. I've no idea what it will be - and to be honest, I don't really give a shit, because I'll be worm food by then

I will try my damnedest to keep alive until summat better comes along.

personally I think we will be fucked up in five and forced into an alternative. Would prefer folk acted towards one sooner but am doubtful most of the time.

Edited: 06/05/2011 at 21:15
06/05/2011 at 21:23

nicely put, Corinthian.

I agree, and would only add that it was made worse because the landlord felt free to gamble like that, because he knew the government had passed a law saying if he lost it all, they'd bail him out. That must never happen again.

06/05/2011 at 21:30
the government is increasingly a puppet of the financial elite, surely. I can only see it being the case. Isn't that the nature of the  free market many  seem to so dearly love? We wouldn't want the state interfering and controlling it would we? -lol
Edited: 06/05/2011 at 21:32
06/05/2011 at 21:32
STU - wrote (see)

mike - I would really like you look deeper into it with an open mind  which I know you generally have.

Thank you.

We agree on more than you might imagine, I think. I too don't fully believe in the "free choice" that people talk about.

Where people are claiming benefits and avoiding work, for example, or buying giant tellies that they don't really need, (or even for that matter cheating on their parliamentary expenses or paying themselves excessive bonuses), I am not inclined to put it all down to "greed" or "idleness" -- I think a lot of it is the culture they find themselves in and the way the system works.  I don't think we can "resocialise" people not to be like that -- because the problem isn't them being like that in the first place. And I don't think we can just "change the culture". How?  We just need to change the way the systems work, for example the benefits system or the governance of top executives pay.

Personally, I don't think capitalism is the problem -- it's the greenest, most productive, most efficient system we have.

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