Immigration

What are your honest views on how this should be handled?

1 to 20 of 49 messages
seren nos    pirate
15/11/2010 at 19:46

I think its way too complicated and an emotional subject to be discussed onan internet running forum............

true to form people will only state their already made up minds whether that be prejudiced one way or another.......

Nam
15/11/2010 at 19:49

In my mind the issues around asylum versus economic migration are almost two seperate topics, and it doesn't help to mix up the discussion because so many people use terms like "asylum seeker", "refugee" and "migrant" as if they all mean the same things. 

ps and I kind of agree with Seren's post i.e. almost what's the point of discussing it here when only a minority understand the issues, processes etc and all you get is a load of uninformed opinion.

Edited: 15/11/2010 at 19:56
15/11/2010 at 19:54
Wow, big subject, and I'm not sure where to start!  In principle, freedom of movement should be a great thing, and often it is, but it being so complex I can't envisage it being entirely problem-free. For example, it's great for us to have a caring society that welcomes asylum seekers, and it's great to have a multicultural society.  But how do you dissect issues like inviting doctors, scientists, and other qualified people to work here versus 'robbing' developing countries of the type of people they need themselves? We also need to guard against treating immigrants like slaves by paying them crap wages that a British person would turn their nose up at.  Then there's the problem of people who set up bogus college courses in order to get dozens of people in the country who then exist 'outside society'.
15/11/2010 at 20:02
The thing that bugs me is that they are supposed to claim asylum in the first neutral country they get to, which means none of them should be claiming asylum here.  Also they only have to put one foot on the ground in this country to be legally entitled to claim asylum, we are not allowed to just turn them around and put them on a plane like they do in other countries, Australia control it very well imho.  I have no problem with genuine people coming here to work and contribute to the country that is hosting them, but people using bullshit excuses to claim asylum and then bleed the country and its resources dry while contributing nothing in return really piss me off.
Do2    pirate
15/11/2010 at 20:18

Round 'em all up and send 'em to Devon - hows that for starters?

Hello KK Nam, Seren - I've not been on here for ages - probably won't be around again for a while if someone takes me seriously either

 On a (slightly) more serious note, whats wrong with the Aussie points system? Infact, i thought we were supposed to have a points system in place of some sort already?

Maybe we could take it a step further, and offer anybody who doesn't fancy contributing something to society in return for their benefits an extended break in a part of the world slightly less "benevolent" than the UK? One in, one out??

Edited: 15/11/2010 at 20:19
Do2    pirate
15/11/2010 at 20:26

KK - Its very flattering of you to ask, but I think you'll find you're already married

Anyway- No - not THAT type of serious!

- I'm just suggesting that any views which take a tighter than liberal line on Immigration can produce some very emotional responses on this type of open forum - whether made in partial jest or complete seriousness.

Nam
15/11/2010 at 20:33

I never said it shouldn't be discussed. 

I said I personally don't see the point in discussing it when only a minority of people can offer anything other than opinion, that's all.  If I wanted to I can discuss the subject at length with shit loads of people at work who are involved in dealing with the issues on the ground, or argue the toss with colleagues at the Home Office about how many legacy cases they can send us to accommodate and in what time frame, I can talk to colleagues in Children's Services about the difficulties of age assessing unaccompanied asylum seekers children who have no papers and don't speak the language... 

My point was simply that If I want to discuss something I discuss it with people who understand something about the subject, not just people who are bored or just want to vent.  *shrugs shoulders*

Nam
15/11/2010 at 20:34
Hi Do2.  How the devil are you?
Do2    pirate
15/11/2010 at 20:56

Well,

the easy stuff first -

I'm good thanks. A little unfit, but then consistent hard work does that to you some times, and my unscheduled trip in to the operating thatre didn't help. Just starting back with the training and managed 12 miles at a reasonable ish pace this evening.

Plan is to do a Mara in the Spring - I'm in London but may not "race" that as I've promised to support C as she has a club place for her debut Mara - so if she asks me to run with her I will. If so then I'm looking at Paris or Edinburgh, but don't know when either of them close entries.

Now, without this country's long history of generous exploitation of immigrant workers, I wouldn't be here (Irish roots), and neither would my GF (Italian roots), and even if i was here, my kids wouldn't be (their mum has German roots).

I'd also argue that our historically aggressive foreign policies have led us to a place where we face a moral obligation to keep our doors open to people from lands that we've previously exploited, but also have produced the foundation for the terrorist threat we face from some of those whom we let in.

I have a long held belief that when going to someone else's home you should respect their house  rules. On a global scale I think this means that those coming to the UK should respect our national language (ie make the effort to learn it), our national culture, and our national laws.  Trouble is though that so many people "native" to this country don't tick all ( or even some) of those boxes, which kind of makes a shakey foundation to be preaching to others from.

 So, we have a history of short sighted policy around both foreign affairs, and home affairs, and I don't think we should really be surprised at the place we find ourselves in if we take a step back and a long hard look at ourselves.

My ideal scenario would not be very far from  what i outlined earlier - get rid of anyone who isn't prepared to contribute to a harmonious and productive society, and only let in those who can add real value. The reality being far more complex than this though, and the legacies of historical policy being all around us, I thnk we all know that nothing is really going to change.

Oh, and as far as the NHS is concerned - I think its on a slippery slope as it is. Any real rationing of access according to passport is largely unworkable, but that won't matter eventually as when it's paired down to its essential bare bones services (not long), everything else will only be available to those who can pay anyway. - whether thats a good thing or not depends on how well we reward people who do make a genuine contribution to society - but thats another debate entirely!

15/11/2010 at 21:25
Nam wrote (see)

I never said it shouldn't be discussed. 

I said I personally don't see the point in discussing it when only a minority of people can offer anything other than opinion, that's all.  If I wanted to I can discuss the subject at length with shit loads of people at work who are involved in dealing with the issues on the ground, or argue the toss with colleagues at the Home Office about how many legacy cases they can send us to accommodate and in what time frame, I can talk to colleagues in Children's Services about the difficulties of age assessing unaccompanied asylum seekers children who have no papers and don't speak the language... 

My point was simply that If I want to discuss something I discuss it with people who understand something about the subject, not just people who are bored or just want to vent.  *shrugs shoulders*


How do you know that we are all bored or just want to vent, though?  Also, don't forget that most of the adults in this country have a right to vote, and immigration is often a hot topic at elections- these people who supposedly know nothing have a lot of power, and they can and will debate on subjects they feel strongly about. Anyway, if all the people who actually know something always got it right, there wouldn't be so many problems.
15/11/2010 at 21:34

when in rome do as the romans do !

I object to changing traditions so we do not offend people of a different culture. The people who banned workers living in England from flying the English Flag during the world cup should be ashamed of themselves.

As a nation founded on Christian beliefs we celebrate Christmas not the festival of winter.

We should ban the burka as it is repressive and is not a requirement of the muslim faith. It also makes identify people harder and increases segregation.

When  I was in school we did not have a 'chalk' board, it was called something else. Did it's previous name ever really offend anyone?

You should have to learn English, my taxes should not be used for translation purposes when there are so many issues to address in the UK.

We should welcome people who wish to live in the UK and contribute to it under the terms and culture offered by the UK .. Every single lazy bugger who leaches of society no matter what nationality, religion or colour should be shipped to the Falklands.

Im a proud Englishman who loves the diversity of my country however I think we are far too politically correct these days and afraid of offending people from other cultures, the manner in which we are as a nation even made me consider if I should post my views and if I would be perceived as racist and this concerns me.

Im not so concerned about immigration as I am leeches on society and people who want to create their own isolated community's or replica of the previous country where they lived. If you live in the UK you should contribute to its rich diverce culture. I truly appreciate the lovely Indian chap who runs my local corner store as he works exceptionally long hours, in fact more than I would be willing. He deserves his success and embraces England as much as he does India. He even had the English flag up during the world cup.

All lazy buggers and that includes English born people should be made to sweep the streets, help people less fortunate than themselves before getting any help from the government at all.

Edited: 15/11/2010 at 21:38
Nam
15/11/2010 at 21:49

All I stated was my personal preference on how I would debate this if I wanted to.  You are free to do or don't do as you please. 

I personally get nothing out of debating emotive stuff with people who don't know any more about the subject matter than Tom, Dick and Harry or in some instanced I do myself.  Of course some people here are in a position to contribute above and beyond just feeling strong about something... but this is the sort of subject where people claim to feel strongly yet don't want to take the time to actually inform themselves.

So all have the right to vote, and I guess that gives people the right to an opinion.  What do you think the proportion of the electorate is, who know what their party actually proposes on a range of issues and who understand the potential consequences of where they've ticked their box? 

kittenkat wrote (see)
Flesh Wound (formally Do2) wrote (see)

- I'm just suggesting that any views which take a tighter than liberal line on Immigration can produce some very emotional responses on this type of open forum - whether made in partial jest or complete seriousness.

Excellent! Bring it on........

This is the kind of thing that does not encourage informed debate, but just rubbing your hands in glee for having stirred a bit of conflict and having killed a couple of hours.

And I can't be arsed with it any more to be honest.  I waste too much time getting involved in debates like this and afterwards always think why bother? 

and for this reason... I'm out. 

Do2    pirate
15/11/2010 at 21:50
Squeakz wrote (see)

As a nation founded on Christian beliefs we celebrate Christmas not the festival of winter.


Spoken like a true Christian immigrant / invader!!

You see the trouble with British identity is that even those of us who would generally be described as "native" have lost sight of our roots (or have never been widely enough educated in them to begin with?)

Christmas - on the 25th December - where is the historical reference for that (in the Bristish Isles or anywhere else for that matter?) A conveniently close date to pagan Winter Soltice celebrations though - changing the culture of the native people of this land.

Easter - now, why do we think that falls when it does, (and infact, why is it even called Easter?) - again Christian immigrants subverting the resident culture  of the Britons.

So, how far back should we go to decide what is sacred and what is progress? If you met me, or my GF, or my kids, you'd say we'd not look out of place at a BNP rally, and yet one and all the descendants of immigrants within the last 150yrs.

Maybe a line should be drawn, but where, and who decides? Its no wonder we have an issue with natonal identity.

Do2    pirate
15/11/2010 at 21:56
Oh, and you're right Nam - i am a bit bored tonight (Spooks finshed last week, and i haven't got round to practcing the guitar this evening like i said i was going to, so I'm feeling at a bit of a loose end), but i don't think that makes my views any less valid does it?
Nam
15/11/2010 at 21:59

The quote could have been misinterpreted, sorry Do2...  I agree with everything you posted 100%.

It was the almost blood thirsty "yeah lets all have it out" response you had that just makes me very wary of the motivation for it.  Hope that clarifies! x

Do2    pirate
15/11/2010 at 22:06
"non-taken"
15/11/2010 at 22:19
Squeakz wrote (see)

As a nation founded on Christian beliefs we celebrate Christmas not the festival of winter.


The phoney war on Christmas.

With respect, whatever religion the majority of our forefathers believed in, the rule of law and the democratic system is based on secularism.  All people should be free to have any beliefs or non-belief that they want and to observe whichever festivals they want to.  I do believe that the so-called 'offence' that certain people are supposed to have about good old British people celebrating Christmas is very largely a myth.

I'm not getting into the wider debate, for a few reasons mentioned above.  I'll sit on the fence (over here IMBY!) 

15/11/2010 at 22:28
Nam wrote (see)

I never said it shouldn't be discussed. 

I said I personally don't see the point in discussing it when only a minority of people can offer anything other than opinion, that's all.  If I wanted to I can discuss the subject at length with shit loads of people at work who are involved in dealing with the issues on the ground, or argue the toss with colleagues at the Home Office about how many legacy cases they can send us to accommodate and in what time frame, I can talk to colleagues in Children's Services about the difficulties of age assessing unaccompanied asylum seekers children who have no papers and don't speak the language... 

My point was simply that If I want to discuss something I discuss it with people who understand something about the subject, not just people who are bored or just want to vent.  *shrugs shoulders*

All anyone can offer is opinion - based on different experience and information - you and your colleagues included.      Immigration is an issue that affects everyone in the country to some extent so whether you consider an opinion ill informed or mistaken it's still valuable to get different perspectives.    
15/11/2010 at 22:37
I think 25th December was Mithras' birthday.  The early Christians put their own "stamp" on most of the pre-existing religions, to accelerate the invasion/conversion/evangelical effort/whatever you wanna call it!
16/11/2010 at 07:22
Flesh Wound (formally Do2) wrote (see)

Round 'em all up and send 'em to Devon - hows that for starters?

No Scotland has much more space!

Immigration - well economic immigration within EU or from outside I don't see a problem as most are here to work so benefit us all. Emotionally I agree that we should accept asylum seekers but rationally we can't have an open door policy. It's a sad fact that there are huge numbers of people in countries around the world that are suffering/oppressed and we simply could not take them all. At least as a country we still keep to our obligations of foreign aid even if times are tough.

As to loss of our national identitiy yes this is a problem - I enjoy experiencing what other cultures and religions have to offer but do not see why we have to suppress our own in case others are offended. All this removal of crosses from churches, no nativity plays at school, festive season instead of christmas really gets me peeved!

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