Snow is here.. time to spot those houses with poor roof insulation

Wilkie...  rather than going up, can it go sideways through a wall?    Or..  up into the roof space, then across and down through a soffit vent?   Lagging a flexible pipe is going to be very hard and fiddly..  I suppose you could try wrapping flexible roof insulation around it...?

Seren..  maybe those comments came from a RICS Home Buyers Report..?   We stopped doing those about 20 years ago...   I think they are very poor report formats. Easy for the surveyor, but poor for the home buyer...  ironically.   Again, the quality of the advice given can be too brief or too vague and can be hard for some people to understand.

I should add..   this is just my personal opinion!   There are thousands of surveyors who do those reports every day and they would probably disagree with me!   

Just so you know...  the RICS Home Buyers report is a template sold to surveyors under licence from the RICS.  The surveyor fills in the blanks on the template...  and hey presto..  instant report.   I don't like them at all.  

Dark The Herald Angels Sing wrote (see)

Wilkie...  rather than going up, can it go sideways through a wall?    Or..  up into the roof space, then across and down through a soffit vent?   Lagging a flexible pipe is going to be very hard and fiddly..  I suppose you could try wrapping flexible roof insulation around it...?

 

No walls to the outside from the bathroom (hence no window).  It would be a long run to the soffit - maybe five or six meters.  I'm on the second floor, so putting a vent into the soffit would probably require scaffolding, as the roof pitch is quite shallow, so actally getting to the eves on the inside is really difficult.

I think insulating it may be the best option 

Thanks for the great thread

- a couple of years ago I noticed condensation on the underside of the roofing felt in my loft.  A year or so prior to that I'd added a lot of loft insulation up there and I did panic a bit on seeing the condensation. 

However, I hadn't realised about the ventilation aspect and had pushed the insulation right up the edge of the joists.  Once I pulled it back, so that I could see the soffits the condensation dispresed over the following week or so.  Phew !

Someone did suggest that as long as the roof space was ventilated (which mine is), you could just cut the vent hose off at a couple of meters, fix it to a joist/beam, and let the air being extracted from the bathroom disperse into the loft.

Since you have not suggested this DTHAS, should I take it that's not a good idea?

Wilkie wrote (see)

Someone did suggest that as long as the roof space was ventilated (which mine is), you could just cut the vent hose off at a couple of meters, fix it to a joist/beam, and let the air being extracted from the bathroom disperse into the loft.

Since you have not suggested this DTHAS, should I take it that's not a good idea?

Holy Moly..  NO!!    Good grief..  that is a terrible idea, please do NOT do that...!

the energy companies have been falling over themselves to give away free loft insulation.......

No, it didn't sound like a good idea to me, tempting though it was!

All this talk of what's wrong with some homes...  I'll give you a good example of just how well houses can be built... and cheaply...    

http://www.scandia-hus.co.uk

I've surveyed probably 50 - 60 Scandia-Hus homes over the years and they are pretty much faultless.   They are of top notch construction and vastly exceed Building Regulations requirements for thermal efficiency.    Have a look at the web link and follow any house and then look at the construction cost.   Why aren't we building all homes like this and to this quality..?

It is basically built for you in a factory in Sweden and arrives in kit form by truck.  It is then erected on a prepared base and fitted out.

Superb, just superb.   Triple glazed windows, internal doors are sealed, air recirculation systems to avoid condensation problems and to move air from the sunny side to the cooler side.  The timber they use is of a very high standard - unlike the rubbish timber used in housing here.  No MDF either.  Attention to detail is perfect.  Even the door hinges are cut into the frames in a factory and the doors arrive already assembled in the frames.  No need for a carpenter to faff with trying to hang a door and manually chase out the timber.  I can't praise these houses enough.  Its just a shame there aren't more of them.

If you are in the South-East, they have a show site in East Grinstead.   Go and take a look for yourself.  This is a top quality house, for much less money than you pay for a 'traditonally' built home here.  

I have absolutely nothing to do with this company at all..  I'm just happy to pass on this information and recommedation based on my professional experience of surveying them.

Have a look at this Scandia-Hus.   This one is now 30 years old and I looked at in in May this year.   

It has no central heating...  only this solid fuel stove.  This stove is situated on the ground floor and produces sufficient heat for the entire house.  Its remarkable.

 And..  it came with TRIPLE glazed windows...  30 years ago..!!  These are its original windows, not replacements.  

Seriously..   'traditional' house builders in this country should look at these houses and learn some lessons.  Absolutely superb construction.

This house is now 30 years old and it still exceeds current UK Building Regulations requirements for thermal efficiency.  Fantastic.

Have a look at this condensation in a roof that I saw today.   This is a brand new house, never lived in and it is supposed to exchange contracts with the first owner at the end of this week.  The snagging list ran to 110 items (!!!) and this included non-compliances with Building Regulations.  The house has a valid Building Regulations completion certificate and an NHBC warranty.   There were so many faults with this house - both fundamental construction and in terms of quality control.  Too many to mention here, but I wanted to show the roof condensation as we were discussing this last week.   This new roof has natural slates and a 'breathable' roofing felt.  These felts are approved for use by Building Regulations and in theory are very good.  In practice, as you will see here, I find continued problems with them and severe condensation.   It is so disappointing.   There is no excuse for this.

The drops you can clearly see are actual water drops and are from condensation.  You can see the soffit vent in the lower part of the photos.  The roof has no air movement and the 'breathable' felt is failing even before the house is occupied.  The moisture of the roof trusses was too low for decay but higher than it should be.   Condensation such as this can only get worse.

With snow everywhere soon, its a good time to look at house roofs and see those with melting snow...   have a look for houses with roof coversions and see if they melt first....

That's really interesting Kelly..  can you show us a photo..?

Poor insulation is not inevitable....  and of course current Building Regulation requirements are very stringent.  For roof conversions, modern solid insulation boards (such as Celotex and Kingspan) are very technically advanaced and on paper and in theory will perform well.   The problem I find over and over and over is poor workmanship with the installation.   They are lightweight and can be cut with a bread knife.  However, they need extremely accurate cutting, overlapped and tapped joints and lots of attention to detail.   

I find that most (huge majority!!) of builder just don't bother with sufficient care and attention.  This is proved at times like this when the heat loss is there to be seen by everyone.

The flat roof for your dormer and the side cheeks, together with the vertical internal wall linings also need to be insulated.   And..  remember to allow for ventilation.  

Exceed Building Regulations when possible..  don't just go for the minimum.

Be ultra critical of the workmanship, especially at joints, junctions and all the hard fiddly bits.  The products are great.  The people installing them are often the problem.

I use the house below as an example and have shown it several times...  you can clearly see the heat loss from the roof conversion...  I took this photo just a few minutes ago...  

Kelly..  another thing to consider...  make sure that the builder installs the products and thicknesses that he is supposed to.  The initial drawings for Building Regs will say what is required..  make sure that it is actually installed and that he doesn't skimp to save money at your expense...   so..  before anything is covered up with plasterboard, make sure it is inspected at every stage of the job.  Celotex and Kingspan are expensive..  but there are cheaper products on the market that may claim to do the same thing but may be less effective.  If the specification is for an expensive product and you have paid for it, make sure it is delivered to site and used - not a cheaper option from a local DIY store.

Kely..........I had my loft conversion done under proper building regulations..........It made the room smaller as they had to put in bigger supports and raise the flor to put in so much insulation and fire proof layering etc.........

I had a proper old fashioned arpenter do it all............it wasn't cheap but it was a good job done...and my snow is still on my roof.......unlike the others in the street that just had it done without proper planning pernission

its fascinating!!!