Sunday Selection

Well, personally I'm not in favour of infant baptism, but that's probably another debate. I would argue, though, that the choice hasn't been made - in most cases, the child is completely unaware of what's happened. They don't have any personal belief at that point.

I was raised by Christian parents. My younger sister and I were both taken to church regularly. I had a passing interest in religion, but no real belief. At 18, while I was at university, and after studying the subject for myself, I chose to become a Christian. My sister never did, and has no particular religious beliefs. So what does that mean? Was I indoctrinated and she wasn't? We both had the same upbringing.

I'd draw an analogy with a different kind of belief. I grew up in one of the safest Labour seats in the country. Pretty much everybody I knew voted Labour, or planned to when they were old enough. I clearly remember thinking, in my mid teens, that Labour was best and that a Tory government was about the worst thing that could happen to the nation. If you like, that was a kind of indoctrination. Nobody set out with the intention of indoctrinating me: that was the culture I was living in, and I absorbed it. 

Eventually, I started to read about other options and I began to form my own political opinions, many of which moved away from the ones I was brought up with. 

I think that's what should happen with religion (and secularism, come to that). All of us absorb beliefs from our culture, whether religious or not. Eventually, we need to test those beliefs for ourselves, and change them if we see fit. My parents and I are all Christians, but that doesn't mean we all hold the exact same set of beliefs on all points. I've changed my mind on some things, and I know they have too.

I don't say that's the way it always happens, but it is the way it should happen and, in this country at least, I think it's the way it happens more often than not.

baptism of a young baby is so that the parents pledge to bring the child up ina loving christian manner...

The child then makes its own decision to celebrate their beliefs when they become confirmed........I do disagree when young children get confirmed............sometimes they like to do job lots when they are 11 and I personally believe that this is way to young to make a major decision like that...........for the majority I think 16 is the minimum to get confirmed.

The thread is developing some interesting twists and turns.

Cultural influances have a strong bearing on what you believe -

Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man

About baptism, the RC church WON'T let you renounce your baptism, and CoE isn't too keen on the idea. You try getting your name removed from a baptism register as see how difficult it is. From the church's view point the've got you. And if you are a Muslim in certian countries it can lead to a death sentence.

In my view taking children to Church every Sunday, and off to Sunday school is indoctrination.

But it doesn't answer the fundemetal question, why do you generally get Chritians in a Christian society, Muslims in a Muslim society and so on. It seems to me that religious belief is cultural. There will be exceptions where people adopt differnt beliefs, along with, in Aarvarks example, political leanings.

But I find that ardent members of a political party just as scary as staunch religious believers. They follow the party line and dogma and can't see that there are alternatives to their own viewpoint.

I agree with Seren completely. I was confirmed at the age of 10 because my C of E school confirmed us all. As I had been baptised as a baby and everyone in my school was doing it, I did too.

A few years later, whilst developing my own beliefs, I was probably ready to make my own commitment and by 17, a confirmation would've meant the world to me, but I was already "done". 

It bothered me for years, but I'm less concerned now. I don't really feel the need to make a public declaration, even though I've been offered an immersion in the pool by our vicar (not a baptism, but a reaffirmation if you like.) He used to adopt the stance of "you're done, mate" but he's changed his stance entirely now.

Gazmanmeister - the freedom to even HAVE this conversation is denied in various parts of the world. We ARE, of course influenced by where we grow up, but believe me - I was a searcher and I checked out quite a few belief paths on the way - though I don't really think a fascination with Monkey and Tripitaka could have really led me to Buddhism.....

MF - Fair enough, but I come back to the same question I raised earlier. If religious belief is purely culturally determined, what makes you think that secularism isn't?

You've set out a view of how beliefs are absorbed. I don't agree with that view, but you're entitled to it. What you haven't done is tell us why that view only applies to religious beliefs. If we have to think of religious beliefs as cultural, why shouldn't we also think of secular materialism as cultural? After all, you're far more likely to be a secularist if you live in Britain or western Europe, and there are specific historical and cultural reasons for that. Why should you think that secularism is any less culturally determined that religion?

The issue becomes further complicated when you look at the kinds of group loyalties that can go with religion. In some countries, it can be very hard to abandon Islamic faith (for example) because the religion is so closely tied into the cultural, national or racial identities. To abandon the faith might be seen as a betrayal of the family, the heritage, etc. I think something similar happened in Northern Ireland during the Troubles. Catholic and Protestant became ethnic groups as much as religious ones. 

As it happens, I was christened in the Catholic church. I'm not sure what you mean when you say that "they've got you". I don't attend a Catholic church now and I have no dealings with them. If my name is on a baptismal register somewhere, so what? It's just a record of an event that took place - it doesn't make any difference to my life now. 

You missed my point that political beliefs tend to be cultural too, though on a smaller regional scale.

The Troubles is a prime example of religious and cultural divide, where both groups seemed to believe it was OK to slaughter each other over issues that are relatively trivial. some different interpretation about their God, and if Ireland should be united. Neither group were being significantly oppressed or punished for their religions and political beliefs, yet elements on both sides were willing to kill indescriminately.

I find the "God is on my side" the most frightening part of religion.

As far as the Catholic church is concerned you are a Catholic, even if you renounce their religion. It may not matter to you, however there are groups who find their inclusion into a church they have renounced offensive.

Mak's friend wrote (see)

I find the "God is on my side" the most frightening part of religion.

So do I. I can't speak for other religions, but any Christian who uses violence to win an argument or gain their political ends is in flat contradiction of Jesus' teachings: "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." No Christian has any business being part of the kind of political violence that went on in Northern Ireland.

I'd never try to argue that religion is always good or that it doesn't have a dangerous side - I've got no interest in defending the indefensible. 

To be honest, I don't find "religion" all that helpful as a category - that was what I was getting at with my point about secularism. Religion is like politics - it covers a huge range of different and often contradictory beliefs and ideas. Those beliefs need to be treated on their individual merits. Unfortunately, when "religion" is discussed in the media these days, it tends to be used as a catch-all term without any reference to specific beliefs or their relationships to culture, tradition, politics, economics, and a whole range of other things. 

I think that Faith is probably a better term to think about than religion - more personal, less the god business.

Big David wrote (see)

I think that Faith is probably a better term to think about than religion - more personal, less the god business.

faith, religion, whatever mumbo jumbo you want to call it - there's still a god involved no matter how personal you want or don't want to make it.
Wrapping it up and tying with nice pretty pink bows will not make it any the more palatable.

yeh but....

Gaz - faith is a personal thing you control (or not..)  but religion is an organisation and as such gets bogged down in politics/dogma and habit

Faith makes you choose activites(could be a sunday race)

Religion says church is held on Sunday morning

Pig. wrote (see)

yeh but....

Gaz - faith is a personal thing you control (or not..)  but religion is an organisation and as such gets bogged down in politics/dogma and habit

Faith makes you choose activites(could be a sunday race)

Religion says church is held on Sunday morning

Faith - makes me choose activities!!!!

I dont think so. definitely no

Gaz

You have a belief system (i.e. some sort of faith) even if you are atheist.

Life is all about choices, like it or not.

An atheist doesn't belief in anything. He believes in nothing.

Personally I believe the universe was created by Unicorns who live at the end of the garden. Until you can devise an experiment or test to show they aren't there, then thats what I will believe.

Now the Great Leader of the Unicorn Sect thinks we should pay him lots of money, only eat baked beans on Tuesdays and got to war on non-beleivers. OK?

Mak's friend wrote (see)

An atheist doesn't belief in anything. He believes in nothing.

That's just plain untrue. The only people who don't have any beliefs are either insane or dead.

Atheism is a worldview or, more specifically, it's a broad label for a wide range of worldviews. Like every other worldview, religious or otherwise, it contains beliefs about the nature of ultimate reality. 

Do you believe in the reliability of human reason? Do you believe that the universe really exists and isn't simply a product of your own consciousness? Do you believe that there are some actions that are morally right and some that are morally wrong? Do you believe that the universe follows laws of cause and effect? 

Most (not all) western atheists would say that they believe all of those things. The point is that each of them represents one possible belief among many. Maybe human reason isn't reliable - maybe we're all subject to some form of random biological determinism. Perhaps the orderly universe that you think you see is simply the result of your mind imposing its own order on the chaos that actually exists. Perhaps behaviour is governed entirely by inherited traits and biological determinism, leaving no possibility of anything being "right" or "wrong" in any abstract sense. 

Like it or not, you believe some things to be true and other things not to be true. You've even talked about your own beliefs several times in your posts. So please let's drop the idea that atheists don't believe in anything. If that was true, we wouldn't be having this discussion. 

Mak's friend wrote (see)

The Troubles is a prime example of religious and cultural divide, where both groups seemed to believe it was OK to slaughter each other over issues that are relatively trivial. some different interpretation about their God, and if Ireland should be united. Neither group were being significantly oppressed or punished for their religions and political beliefs

the Troubles had nothing to do with interpretation of God! it was a reflection of history in which local people had their land taken away from them and were subjugated and opressed.  The locals were Catholic, the land takers Protestant (usually English and Scots protestants given land by the King or Queen of the time) and from there the die was cast.  Ireland was a combination of political and religious domination - nice combination that.

In the UK we tend to think of ourselves as fairly benevolent on religion but this is a romantic notion developed by a lot of romantic tosh taught us in school.  Much of our history is littered with warfare and murder based on Catholic and Protestant divides.

Big David wrote (see)

Gaz

You have a belief system (i.e. some sort of faith) even if you are atheist.

Life is all about choices, like it or not.

I recall someone saying to me (and I am an atheist) that atheists were people that didnt believe in organised religion but did believe in God.  I have no idea where they got that idea from! total crap in all honesty.  No offense Big David but I see stuff from religious quarters where they seem desperate to make atheists in some way just like them - i.e. we have a view of the world we live in therefore that is 'a faith' and so in some way we are just like them, we just dont admit it.  Nope, sorry its being clever with words.

A atheist believes that there is no god.

This is not just a lack of belief, but a definite belief in the non existence of god.

(You can not prove a non existence so this is a matter of faith.)

If this is not so then you are not an atheist, but an agnostic - a religious don't know.