Who speaks Latin?

I'm after a translation please.

18 messages
13/06/2009 at 21:47

I've been trawling through a parish register transcript and came across this:

 Hec sunt noi'a corum Burgensui' intrinsecorum et forinsecorum per Curium Rotule admissorum quorum patres non fuerunt in prefata Gilda ideo fecerunt finem ut inferius patebit

Can someone help me with translating it please?

Following is what looks like a list of subscriptions or donations to a Guild. It dates from about 1622.

Many thanks!

13/06/2009 at 22:30
Coops might be your man. I think his joke book is in Latin.
13/06/2009 at 22:36

Cheers Muttley!

I realise I should be doing something more exciting than reading ancient parish records on a Saturday night, but there ya go!!

13/06/2009 at 22:40

Hi!

I tried here

But a lot of the words do not appear to translate.

It is probably not classical latin.
It could easily contain spelling mistakes.
People writing these things often used abreviations.
Script styles haved changed with fashion which could mean that you actually have mistaken the letters intended.

Using the website and putting in a a few variations I got this gibberish:

This are noi'a to glitter Burgensui' to entangle to cut and out of doors to cut very Court Wheel-shaped admissorum of which patres not have upon to put in charge of Gilda for that reason fecerunt territory those down below limits.

admissorium looks like it relates to admission.

fecerunt looks like it could be to do with making or easing,

13/06/2009 at 22:52

Thanks for that valiant attempt Big David. My Latin is limited to Dulce et decorum est... so anything is better than what I had.

I'll have a think about it, and try again with fresh eyes in the morning.

Why did my school offer German O level and not Latin? At least Latin would be some use to me. Even my German consultant speaks better English than I do, so never used that in over 20 years.

13/06/2009 at 22:59

I did do Latin at school, but unfortunately can't remember enough to help with this. I hated it at the time but it subsequently turned out to be very useful, given that my work is a mixture of journalism and foreign languages.

You could try the over-60s thread ... might be a couple of native speakers there!

13/06/2009 at 23:33
i did 2 terms at Uni which I really enjoyed, i then dropped it and changed courses otherwise i might have been some help
13/06/2009 at 23:40

It means....

Knock, knock,
Who's there....?

Etc etc

14/06/2009 at 00:15

Latin is the official language of the Vatican City

So give the Holy Father a call

I'm sure he'd be glad to help

19/06/2009 at 21:18
Needn't go as far as the Holy Father; just try your local Catholic priest. If he can't do it, he probably knows a man who can.
19/06/2009 at 21:20

I'm not really on speaking terms to the priesthood either Columba.

I've found a contact through a family history mailing list who might be able to have a go. I'll have to let you all know what it said if I do get a translation. It'll be dull!

Edited: 19/06/2009 at 21:21
22/06/2009 at 11:46
Managed to speak to a RC priest myself who said his Latin isn't up to much but he confirmed it is indeed full of spelling mistakes and also Latin doesn't use apostrophes. He referred me on to someone else whom I shall probably see Wednesday evening so if no joy through your mailing list I may have further info for you Thursday.  
22/06/2009 at 11:51
as a thought - why not call one of the academics at the local Uni?? or if they don't have a languages department that has anyone specializing in Latin, call one of the bigger city ones
02/07/2009 at 18:17

Hi Kwilter

Don't know if you are still on the lookout for your translation, but my scholarly brother got stuck in and this is what he has come up with.  He is in agreement with earlier posts that spelling and grammar isn't quite right. I'm impressed - hope you are too!

Hec sunt noi'a corum Burgensui' intrinsecorum et forinsecorum per Curium Rotule admissorum quorum patres non fuerunt in prefata Gilda ideo fecerunt finem ut inferius patebit  ‘Hec’ – could this be ‘hic’, or more likely ‘haec’?   ‘Hec sunt’ - These are  ‘noi’a’ – no idea – doesn’t look right at all. Probably an abbreviation. Could it be short for ‘nostra’, our?  ‘corum’ – could this be coram, openly, in the presence of?  ‘Burgensui’ – of the Burghers?  ‘intrinsecorum et forinsecorum’ (or forincecorum) – this phrase occurs quite a bit on the Internet, but it does not appear to be in my Latin dictionary. Could it be ‘native and foreign’? Or ‘forinsecorum’ could be could be something to do with courts of law. ‘Intrinsecus’ – late Latin for inward, inwardly   ‘per’ – through, during, by means of, on account of   ‘Curium’ – could this be curiam? Curia – city-house  ‘Rotule’ – by Rotulus?  ‘admissorum’ – of the faults  ‘quorum’ – of whom  ‘admissorum quorum’ – of whose faults  ‘patres’ – fathers, senators, but probably too late historically for senators  ‘non fuerunt’ – (they) were not   ‘in’ – in, into – probably ‘in’ here ‘prefata Gilda’ – I don’t know – ‘Gilda’ could be a proper name, or late Latin for guild  ‘ideo’ – for that purpose  ‘fecerunt’ – (they) made, did  ‘ut inferius’ – in order that the lower  ‘patebit’ – will be open, evident
02/07/2009 at 19:52

Soojie, that's great!! Thank your brother for me please.

So I'm looking at something along the lines of

In the presence of the burghers and respected people of the city, both native born and foreigners/in presence of this court these people admit their faults and for that purpose, the Guild has ordered the evidence below.

What followed below in the document was a list of names and monies.

So it looks like a list of fines imposed by the parish on wrong doers. Great, looks like my ancestors were all sinners!!

From my limited knowledge of local parish records, the priests tended to make up their own abbreviations and of course spellings weren't consistent during the 1600s, so I'm not surprised everyone who tried to help me came up against brickwalls. Looks like this one has been demolished now.

Thanks to everyone for your suggestions.

02/07/2009 at 21:05

Soojie2 & kwilter - just some observations on your good work so far: I used to do historical research for a living and ran a mediaeval Latin class for the Leeds Workers' Educational Association in the 80s.

Hec is a version of Haec = These.  noi'a is an abbreviation for nomina = names

could corum be eorum = these?   The translation above is pretty close but might I offer my version?

These are the names of those (?) Burgesses, residents and non-residents,  admitted by Court Roll whose fathers were not in the aforementioned Guild, therefore they made fine as will appear below.

To make fine was a commonly occurring term in court rolls.  It could relate to a penalty for allowing beasts to graze where they should not; in this case, I suspect it would have been a payment for the privileges associated with the 'Guild', not unlike a modern-day subscription.

To be fair, mediaeval Latin is awash in abbreviations that resemble apostrophes, lines and other letters - these are simply the shorthand of the day, allowing for standardisation of common abbreviations, e.g. noi'a above.  The letters i, m, n, and u often fell victim to this and this led to many researchers, me included, poring over a series of vertical strokes, trying to make sense of the possible combinations.

Anyway, I'll close here.  Palaeography still fascinates me, even though I now train teachers for a living.

Hope this helps. 

02/07/2009 at 21:36

Swittle that's amazing!! It totally makes sense within the context of the document.

If you could see the expression on my face, it's a combination of  and  and a bit  that my ancestors were law abiding and not vile sinners after all.

The expertise on this forum surprises me constantly. How else would I get in contact with someone who's an expert in mediaeval Latin except through a running forum?

02/07/2009 at 22:50

I'm pleased to have been able to clarify a few points for you. 

A burgess was a citizen with full rights and the status to match.  Guilds were a mix between trade associations but with elements of secrecy akin to copyright ,  Membership conferred  financial & commercial advantages too.  So, your forebears seem to have been not only respectable but, quite likely, prosperous too.

You are quite right about hidden talents on the forum: we are united by running but our diversity rarely surfaces.  I'd have continued researching and teaching Latin, Greek & palaeography except that I'd get so involved in a commission that I'd spend twice as long on it as I was paid for and, in consequence, had to take up part-time teaching to top up my income.  That led me into my present career, so, quite often, these things are meant to be.

Good luck with your research.


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