Long slow runs why?

they say that you take 3 weeks to recover from a marathon/.........if you run your long runs at this pace then you will not ever giove your chance to recover.........I have heard of a the number of people who race 2 or 3 20 milers in training  and then go on to not get the marathon time they were expecting

SFL - I'd suggest you go and do a race this weekend.  As with most endeavours - it's impossible to decide upon a realistic destination and make a plan how to get there if you don't know where you are starting from.

A mistake many runners make is trying to make their training runs simulate exactly what they'll do in the race.  At the end of the day that's the main motivation behind so many people running their long runs much too fast.

When you run you use several systems of energy. The Krebs cycle - energy direct from glocose in food eg gels, carb drink, breakfast; The Cori cycle - storing and recycling glycogen using the liver; and from  Lypolysis - the breakdown of fat.

The problem is you need to get your body used to using all these systems and it uses them in differing ways depending on the speed you are running and how well your body has adapted.

You can't consume enough glucose to run purely on food - too many gels and drinks would be needed and you can't break them down and absorb them quickly enough anyway. Over a long period the Cori cycle eventually runs out of stored clucose. So the best source is through stored fat (Lypolysis). Running slowly "turns off" the first two processes and tunes your body to run on the stored fat.

I used to do exactly what you are doing now and although I wasn't suffering any injuries or felt especially tired, everyone on this forum told me I was asking for trouble.  So rather than waiting for the trouble to arrive, I nipped it in the bud and started to train properly.

One thing did strike me though, most advocates of the LSR/LSD on this forum talk of a sub 75% heartrate run.  I bought and am using as my training guide now "Advanced Marathoning" by Pete Pfitzinger and Scott Douglas.  They advocate a long run between 74% and 84% of maximal heartrate which can make quite a big difference against sub 75%.  Not everyone has 3 or 4 hours free to run 20 miles at crazy slow paces but that extra 5 or 10% here can make a big difference to the time it takes and the enjoyment you get form it.  They don't advocate really slow runs because your stride pattern will not mimic the one you'll actually be using during the competitive runs and this makes a lot of sense to me.  My LSR runs are slow but a decent enough pace not to frustrate me and average about 80% heartrate.

I think just as important, if not even more important is you recovery run.  This is done the day after the LSR or a speed session and this run I do, do at very slow pace.  Certainly sub 75%. This makes all the difference as your legs are right as rain the day after.

Pfitzinger p.19 - the high end is for "elites"; the low end is for us mortals...

also for us mortals, there is no recovery run the day after the LSR for P&D lower mileage plans. Pfitz&Douglas reserve that for those running the 70 - 85mpw  and 85+mpw schedules. It's a rest or cross training day for their lower mileage schedules. I take it as a slow recovery row for 40mins.

Its also great when you do a lot of base work before starting a long training plan, running along at 70ish%HR, to find you are chipping along much quicker then you expected you would be - once that starts happening to you, you get some faith in this long slow run lark.

Teknik wrote (see)

Pfitzinger p.19 - the high end is for "elites"; the low end is for us mortals...

True but uses the term "generally".  I place my runs roughly in the middle as I don't consider myself a total novice runner and obviously not an elite.  The point about how the stride pattern feels cannot be overlooked.  If it feels abnormal and uncomfortable at sub 75% then the chances are you're going to do yourself more harm than good.  If 80% feel much better and isn't having a negative impact on your body, surely this is what's right for you?

SB...I've tended to shout from my soapbox having recently converted to low HR training, so apologies if I've sounded too didactic.

...just watch you don't drift up too much on the long runs

smoke free lee wrote (see)

With Edinburgh being so far away I'm not going to increase my long run for a couple of months.

No reason why you can't start increasing your long run now. Actually it's a very sensible idea to start early and have a few weeks 'leeway' built in to your long term plan in case of illness or injury. If you're thinking of doing a 16 week training plan, starting it exactly 16 weeks before the marathon leaves no time to make up any training you might miss out on for whatever reason.

If you get to week 13 and you're still 8 weeks out from the marathon, you can just repeat a few weeks. I don't think this would be anything but good as long as you remember to take it slightly easier every third week.

Teknik is right about physiological changes your body has to make. The training plans are based on fact and research, they're not just guesswork! The others are right about the forum being littered with first time marathon runners who blow up at 20 miles.

Train smart and you won't need to train so hard.

Teknik wrote (see)

SB...I've tended to shout from my soapbox having recently converted to low HR training, so apologies if I've sounded too didactic.

...just watch you don't drift up too much on the long runs

Not at all mate, forums are here for exchanging views.

One thing I do make sure is that i'm very strict on my drift on long runs.  Alarms are triggered if I go over 82% but I'm normally looking at my watch every minute or so to make sure I don't even get that far up in the first place.

runs-with-dogs wrote (see)

smoke free lee wrote (see)

With Edinburgh being so far away I'm not going to increase my long run for a couple of months.

No reason why you can't start increasing your long run now. Actually it's a very sensible idea to start early and have a few weeks 'leeway' built in to your long term plan in case of illness or injury. If you're thinking of doing a 16 week training plan, starting it exactly 16 weeks before the marathon leaves no time to make up any training you might miss out on for whatever reason.

If you get to week 13 and you're still 8 weeks out from the marathon, you can just repeat a few weeks. I don't think this would be anything but good as long as you remember to take it slightly easier every third week.

Teknik is right about physiological changes your body has to make. The training plans are based on fact and research, they're not just guesswork! The others are right about the forum being littered with first time marathon runners who blow up at 20 miles.

Gotta watch out for them, could really put you off your stride people exploding left, right and centre with 6 miles to go.

LOL