The Stillman Formula for optimal running weight

kittenkat wrote (see)

Really people, just because one person is probably (maybe) really struggling with an eating disorder; so what in the bigger scheme of things regarding exposing the subject? Don't call for RW to delete it, also don't bastardise him.

It's now come out into the open, just fucking talk honestly and in an adult way.

It's not scandal, it's a thread on a specific forum.

I dont have the same value for your opinions that you so. I am adult and I am honest, dont try to pretend that you are the only person capable of honest and adult conversation.

The deletion of this thread might be more valuable than discussion on this thread by people who have not very much to say. If you cannot understand that, itis your issue, not mine.

I don't post often on forums but I saw this thread and dipped in as I had also checked up optimal race weight and saw the Stillman formula. From taking a brief look at it I realised that the weights expected for optimal performance were way too low for me. I am 40 and female, and although I know I could do with losing a stone to run faster and feel better I also know that I am a size 10 and look ok doing as I am. My non running friends would say I would look too thin if I even dropped a stone.

I work in psychology and worked in Eating Disorders for 3 years. From that experience and knowledge I do know the recommended BMI's. It's 3 years since I worked in the field and things may have changed but we took any BMI between 18-25 as normal (also accepting that a BMI between 25-30 could be ok if the person was an athlete e.g rugby player as more muscle mass, so can be misleading as otherwise a BMI of that would show to be overweight).

A BMI below 17.8 as being anorexic. So, BMI of 15-17.8 was classed as anorexic and BMI of 15 -13.5 as severe anorexia. A BMI of 14-13.5 would require hospital admission for re feeding and often forced sectioning. What is also worrying is the fact that muscle weighs more. So, if people who have a low BMI and also exercise alot it gives a false weight as we all know muscle weighs more than fat, so often actually lower than someone who does no sport or exercise.

These results were lower for children and teens as they do tend to weight less, but as an adult were seen as the guidlines. So If the gentleman who posted the thread does have a real BMI of 14.5 and is doing alot of running it is likely his true BMI is lower as very little fat and mainly muscle. If that is the case, and this is not a wind up I would suggest there maybe a problem and should seek some professional help!

Other complicating factors include whether the person uses other compensatory means for weight loss such as laxatives/diuretics or purging. Interestingly exercise is also seen as a compensatory method, and of course you have the problem of electrolyte problems with rhythm of heart (particularly sodium and potassium which are very important in cardiac conductivity).

Just one final point. Eating disorders do alter a persons thinking and it is often a distorted and irrational perception of how they really are and look.

If this man is anorexic, he needs medical and psychological help. Posts on this forum and any responses he receives are likely to be perceived as he sees fit rather than as they were intended. In fact, any responses at all (and the irony of this statement is not lost on me) may provide a form of validation. 

I hope he gets the help he needs. 

bos1 wrote (see)

kittenkat wrote (see)

Really people, just because one person is probably (maybe) really struggling with an eating disorder; so what in the bigger scheme of things regarding exposing the subject? Don't call for RW to delete it, also don't bastardise him.

It's now come out into the open, just fucking talk honestly and in an adult way.

It's not scandal, it's a thread on a specific forum.

 

The deletion of this thread might be more valuable than discussion on this thread by people who have not very much to say.

If that system was in operation, a large part of the forum would have to be deleted!

This thread has broken no T&Cs, therefore deletion would be subjective which goes against moderation policy I would guess.

Canal Cruiser wrote (see)

I don't post often on forums but I saw this thread and dipped in as I had also checked up optimal race weight and saw the Stillman formula. From taking a brief look at it I realised that the weights expected for optimal performance were way too low for me. I am 40 and female, and although I know I could do with losing a stone to run faster and feel better I also know that I am a size 10 and look ok doing as I am. My non running friends would say I would look too thin if I even dropped a stone.

I work in psychology and worked in Eating Disorders for 3 years. From that experience and knowledge I do know the recommended BMI's. It's 3 years since I worked in the field and things may have changed but we took any BMI between 18-25 as normal (also accepting that a BMI between 25-30 could be ok if the person was an athlete e.g rugby player as more muscle mass, so can be misleading as otherwise a BMI of that would show to be overweight).

A BMI below 17.8 as being anorexic. So, BMI of 15-17.8 was classed as anorexic and BMI of 15 -13.5 as severe anorexia. A BMI of 14-13.5 would require hospital admission for re feeding and often forced sectioning. What is also worrying is the fact that muscle weighs more. So, if people who have a low BMI and also exercise alot it gives a false weight as we all know muscle weighs more than fat, so often actually lower than someone who does no sport or exercise.

These results were lower for children and teens as they do tend to weight less, but as an adult were seen as the guidlines. So If the gentleman who posted the thread does have a real BMI of 14.5 and is doing alot of running it is likely his true BMI is lower as very little fat and mainly muscle. If that is the case, and this is not a wind up I would suggest there maybe a problem and should seek some professional help!

Other complicating factors include whether the person uses other compensatory means for weight loss such as laxatives/diuretics or purging. Interestingly exercise is also seen as a compensatory method, and of course you have the problem of electrolyte problems with rhythm of heart (particularly sodium and potassium which are very important in cardiac conductivity).

 

Interesting post thanks, out of interest is there ever a difference between people with a very low BMI and anorexia, or is everyone under a certain weight clinically diagnosed as anorexic? I think what I'm asking is do you see people who are dangerously underweight who are there for other reasons (excluding physical illness) which don't slot into the typical anorexic psychology?

I don't believe that this thread should be cazzed. It has value. it is highlighting the incidence of annorexia among athletes, runners in particular.

The OP has not posted in this thread for a while and may or may not be lurking. He may or may not be validating himself / his condition through the posts here. It's not bad to do that. Many of the posts on this forum are from people wanting some form of validation. It's normal.

I have worked with annorexic teens in the past. I have had a few friends who are annorexic. I am concerned that at least one of my current running friends is annorexic.

I also believe that the OP has the right to post on these forums and not have his threads cazzed because someone somewhere takes offence at them or finds them objectionable. - Agree with KK on her stance here.

No one here is going to change Killermiles opinion of his weight. Whether professional help could is another matter, and frankly in my opinion whether anyone should help him is another discussion again, but i'm not going there. So whether this thread validates him is not really an issue, he doesn't need anyone's validation, he want's admiration for the self control exerted over his eating, none of which he has got.

Not one single post has virtually patted his back, he's been slated at every turn, by people on both sides of the discussion regarding whether he should even be allowed to post.

So yes this thread should be kept, because despite the inflated ego's of some of the opinions on here they're not going to change the mind of someone with body dismorphia and anorexia. But, the respected race times and training of some posters could turn away from starvation those who might be dallying with the idea of extreme weight loss as an aid to running, sweeping a thread like this under the carpet would mean there is no "sensible" opposing argument.

Having just read through the above responses I do understand why the thread has some benefits to keep going - I suppose my concern is for those people who only read the first post then the stillman calculator etc and potentially think it is a positive thing to do! Those with ED's are also more vulnerable to thinking it is a good calculator to use! I thoroughly agree that more open discussion re eating disorders and running (or other sports) would be very beneficial. It is a commmonly misunderstood condition - and a very dangerous one at that, but i'm not convinced this thread is the one to use. I just hope the OP gets some help asap.

KK - yes there is a difference between a low BMI and anorexia. One person who has a low BMI and underweight through illness or general low apetite would just be called 'anorexic' as in 'lack of apetite', whereas someone diagnosed with an actual eating disorder would be diagnosed as having anorexia nervosa. There's various criteria that have to be met before a diagnosis can be made.

Jellybaby: If runnersworld isn't a good place to discuss sensible running weights and body shape then where is? An aspiring runner isn't going to go to the NHS site, or some self help site for ideas on optimal body size vs performance, they are going to come to somewhere like here, it's surely then prefereble to keep a discussion such as this, and acknowledge that this is the right place as as they will will look to faster runners for their cues.

Bare in mind killermiles is a runner, he hasn't just come here and said "how can I lose weight", if an anorexia nervosa sufferer was asking that with no interest in sport then yes this probably wouldn't be the place for it. It also needs to be considered that theres a fine line between optimal running weight and anorexic, and most of the population would consider the faster runners here to be underweight, regardless of the truth because it's a personally emotive issue. For an overweight outsider it's easy to glance at runners and say they're too skinny without even looking at their body composition, it's only by talking to those at the coal face that you get to see the true picture.

Personally I think there's more reverse body dismorphia in this country than there is the other way around, someone who actually is fat and wants to be slimmer shouldn't be discouraged for fear of them being anorexic.

Lardarse - you have made some good points and I do see where you are coming from, and as I said in my post above  'I thoroughly agree that more open discussion re eating disorders and running (or other sports) would be very beneficial. It is a commmonly misunderstood condition - and a very dangerous one at that, but i'm not convinced this thread is the one to use.'

If there was a general thread about body image, weight, diet etc that would be great - it's the starting point on this thread I find challenging, but I really do accept that I am probably more sensitive about it than non ED sufferers!

Jelleybaby wrote (see)

Lardarse - you have made some good points and I do see where you are coming from, and as I said in my post above  'I thoroughly agree that more open discussion re eating disorders and running (or other sports) would be very beneficial. It is a commmonly misunderstood condition - and a very dangerous one at that, but i'm not convinced this thread is the one to use.'

If there was a general thread about body image, weight, diet etc that would be great - it's the starting point on this thread I find challenging, but I really do accept that I am probably more sensitive about it than non ED sufferers!

But, my argument to that is that anyone who would endanger themselves would already be on that slope, just seeing the OP of this thread couldn't produce that result. Also if someone has an ED, they are probably scouring other more relative forums for validation. But I do understand what you're saying.

Let's face it, someone would have to be stupid, vulnerable or already ill to not see why this thread has got the responses it has. And that statement is not meant in any derogatory way at all.

I actually don't think of denial as other people do. If someone has a serious problem with ED, addiction, whatever. They aren't unaware that they have a problem; I think they do know but aren't in a position to face it at that point, and sadly sometimes never.

I don't know, I don't pretend to know...

Killiermiles seems to be getting a thorough character assassination at the moment; the original statement was about optimal running weight. Killermiles; you say your times are consistant but are they getting quicker? I am thinking that to find an optimal weight you have to lose weight until your times stop improving and then stop? Or is speed not your objective? Have entered my first ultra in March 2013 and am interested in an 'optimal weight'...

When I mentioned the potential for distress a thread like this would cause was more related to distress to people who might be in the proces of recovering, or have recovered.

Deleting a thread or letting it die is not censorship. It may me about being aware of sensitivities. And I do not find it edifying that two posters such as kk and lardarse should thry to school anyone on posting on the internet. Certainly not someone who has direct experience to share.

and kk I really do wonder how you think linking an article about athletes starving themselves for success does anything other validate the OP. You and lardarse think you should post on anything, but:
you are not making this thread into an awareness thread, you just demonstrate how unaware you are
you are not helping the OP
you are not helping other ED people other than demonstrating that you dont know how to listen.

Having an internet connection and a keyboard doesnt mean you should comment on everything. In real life most people can demonstrate tact and sensitivity. Waving the censorship card shows a lack of understand about what censorship really is.

kittenkat wrote (see)

Stevie G . wrote (see)

Do you fancy yourself as some sort of amateur psychologist KK?

I've seen anorexia in someone in real life, so it's not the best to see someone with a much more serious case publically withering on the forums thanks.

Back to your drawing board eh?

You've 'seen' anorexia in someone in real life... I bet you see dead people too!

I do. Mentioned to SG I'd come across a guy on my local golf course last Saturday morning who'd hung himself. 

SideBurn wrote (see)

Killiermiles seems to be getting a thorough character assassination at the moment; the original statement was about optimal running weight. Killermiles; you say your times are consistant but are they getting quicker? I am thinking that to find an optimal weight you have to lose weight until your times stop improving and then stop? Or is speed not your objective? Have entered my first ultra in March 2013 and am interested in an 'optimal weight'...

Are you actually suggesting that if the chap is still getting faster, then being a dangerously underweight BMI in the 14s is then ok?

Ric, a positively gruesome discovery for you.Something that would disturb weaker people than yourself for sure.

Just another facet of life's rich tapestry.

RicF wrote (see)

kittenkat wrote (see)

Stevie G . wrote (see)

Do you fancy yourself as some sort of amateur psychologist KK?

I've seen anorexia in someone in real life, so it's not the best to see someone with a much more serious case publically withering on the forums thanks.

Back to your drawing board eh?

You've 'seen' anorexia in someone in real life... I bet you see dead people too!

I do. Mentioned to SG I'd come across a guy on my local golf course last Saturday morning who'd hung himself. 

'mentioned' isn't a word usually associated with talking about suicide.