Orthotic Insoles

What type to buy???

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14/11/2012 at 00:27

I was treated by a physio today, (sore hip, and back) she suggested I have flat feet and need Orthotic insoles, and directed me to some on thier company website.

But the ones suggested cost over £40, do I need to be paying this much for a decent pair, also any suggestions on which are best to use.

14/11/2012 at 00:35

none, waste of time and money, they are only patching up your problems....

its not a bad thing you have flat feet, but the reason they're flat is because their weak because they have been support by shoes, so the orthotics (which will support them alot) are only going to keep things at bay, they wont fix you.

If I was you I would look at learning barefoot running or running in minimalist shoes.

Thank me in a year when your all fixed

14/11/2012 at 06:57

I wasted money on orthotics since all they do is get in the way of your foots natural motion.

All I needed was an arch support for when I was just plodding along.

I got a rubberised insole with arch support from a running shop. Brilliant results.

And cheap.

14/11/2012 at 09:19

NHS website (http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/flatfeet/Pages/Introduction.aspx) suggests flat feet are often genetic and that's certainly the case for me, because my flat feet were a problem when I did ballet as a kid.  Yes, I'm sure you can strengthen your feet, but if it's genetic then you will never have a 'normal' arch, simply stronger flat feet, surely?

14/11/2012 at 12:20

...if only it was that simple.

If you've been suggested a certain type then I'd buy them - if they fail, or don't help you can then go back to the physio and ask why not.

Going off piste could potentially cost more in the long run - financially and medically.

14/11/2012 at 16:10

Thanks, I think. Very contrasting views indeed.

The physio suggests that my flat feet are causing me to over pronate, which is causing pain in my hip, which is in turn causing pain in my back and legs.   

If I start running bare foot or in minimalistic shoes will the problem still persist?

Or if I go for the orthotics or arch support would I need them in all my shoes eg; my work shoes (which I spend 8 to 10 hours a day in) and my running shoes etc.

Sorry to go on but I am really enjoying my running at the moment and if I do a parkrun on a saturday I am in pain most of the week.

 

14/11/2012 at 16:35
avit wrote (see)

none, waste of time and money, they are only patching up your problems....

its not a bad thing you have flat feet, but the reason they're flat is because their weak because they have been support by shoes, so the orthotics (which will support them alot) are only going to keep things at bay, they wont fix you.

If I was you I would look at learning barefoot running or running in minimalist shoes.

Thank me in a year when your all fixed

Would you wear glasses if your eyesight was a bit out?  Or would that be unnatural?

If it was just the foot weakness, I could understand the barefoot theory might be worth considering... but it's the collateral damage that can be done that's the biggest issue  - and supporting the foot is much easier than trying to support bits of your body further up. (I had planned to say this before PeterTul said that this is indeed the case).

I'm being flippant with the glasses remark. The barefoot idea has some possible merit as part of a carefully thought through individualised programme (possibly strenghtening support muscles to hip and knee for example)

The OP might not be writing to thank you in year's time.  His knees or hip might be knackered, because he didn't take some simple advice to support his arches !



Edited: 14/11/2012 at 16:38
14/11/2012 at 17:01

I wear my orthotics quite a bit when walking or running.  I can get away without them when racing (it's almost impossible to fit orthotics into cross-country spikes in any event).  I'd say that, particularly bearing in mind I run much more than I used to (70 mpw v 40 mpw pre-orthotics), my injury rate is lower now.

14/11/2012 at 21:55
Run Wales wrote (see)
avit wrote (see)

none, waste of time and money, they are only patching up your problems....

its not a bad thing you have flat feet, but the reason they're flat is because their weak because they have been support by shoes, so the orthotics (which will support them alot) are only going to keep things at bay, they wont fix you.

If I was you I would look at learning barefoot running or running in minimalist shoes.

Thank me in a year when your all fixed

Would you wear glasses if your eyesight was a bit out?  Or would that be unnatural?

If it was just the foot weakness, I could understand the barefoot theory might be worth considering... but it's the collateral damage that can be done that's the biggest issue  - and supporting the foot is much easier than trying to support bits of your body further up. (I had planned to say this before PeterTul said that this is indeed the case).

I'm being flippant with the glasses remark. The barefoot idea has some possible merit as part of a carefully thought through individualised programme (possibly strenghtening support muscles to hip and knee for example)

The OP might not be writing to thank you in year's time.  His knees or hip might be knackered, because he didn't take some simple advice to support his arches !



That is a very unhelpful post, the glasses remark is totally unrelatable as you cant consciously do anything to strengthen your eyes! The OP will find that he will not suffer from knee, or hip or back problems if he learns to run in the natrual way we are meant to. I can bet the OP is a heel striker?? The problems he is suffering with are typical heel striker complains...

If the OP builds up to barefoot running and slowly increases his mileage he will not hurt himself and in fact will IMPROVE the health of his knees and hips as they are allowed to function naturally by running barefoot/minimalist and therefore the tendons and ligaments will strengthen. The OP will probably find that his arches become higher from running barefoot style too. If he goes out like a bull at a gate then yes you're asking for injuries. Just remember for most of your life your feet have been walking around support by the latest running shoe and so are very weak, so take it slowly.

Carry on with the orthotics and heel striking but I bet your asking the same question in a few years time, and visiting your physio again...

14/11/2012 at 22:01

Run Wales are you a barefoot/ minimalist runner?

Well I am. I also understand both sides of the argument too because 4 years ago I was sat with a physio telling me I had flat feet and I needed orthotics.... I used them for running and in my everyday shoes, did they make me better...nope I got pain in my left hip, lower back and when running long miles right knee pain.

Now I run in minimalist sandals. Now I have no knee pain, no hip pain and no back pain. Your body is much cleverer than a set of orthotics, leave it to its own devises and it shall work the best.

14/11/2012 at 23:21
Not sure if they are any good but in most sweatshop stores they will make up a special set of inner soles for your feet, giving you the right amount of lift/ support where you need it for each foot. The do it to free and you can try them in the shop. They cost ??45 if you want to take them home but you can try them for up to 30 days and then take them back apparently (same with shoes) if you dont think they help. You can wear them with all shoes if you want. I bought some shoes there today and they made some up for me but I chose not to buy as don't really need them!
15/11/2012 at 00:47

^^ yet another way the retail industry has brainwashed into thinking we 'need' something like this to stay healthy...

what on earth did we do before such things as these existed?!

15/11/2012 at 05:05

avit wrote (see)

^^ yet another way the retail industry has brainwashed into thinking we 'need' something like this to stay healthy...

what on earth did we do before such things as these existed?!

What did we do before running shoes were invented?  Well generally, we walked around a bit, picking berries and nuts.  Occasionally we'd stalk and sprint to catch prey.  We certainly didn't subject our feet and legs to the stresses of running 50 miles a week on hard tarmac! 

The fanatical minimalists seem to overlook this. They always talk of running being a natural activity... and that we should be barefoot.. or near barefoot.

Fell running , trail running, cross country - these forms of running are a little nearer to natural activities for the human form. On the other hand, distance-running, 50 miles a week, on hard roads is an artificial sport... like tennis, rugby, motorcycle racing are artificial .

Funnily enough, the retail industry has brainwashed us into shoes that are pretty minimalist for this natural fell, trail and cross country running.  But for the 'artificial' activity of road running, this is where conventional supportive, cushioned shoes have generally become more useful.

Of course there's marketing hype to be found, just like the marketing of many products like computers, phones, cars and (dare I say it) minimalist shoes too.

I could write at length.. to explain things like... I said my glasses analogy was flippant at the time, so why pick up on it.  And that my post was not unhelpful - it just had a different view to yours. And the assertion that ALL flat feet are cause by wearing supportive shoes.   And the assertion that because there are numerous anecdotes, including your own, that say that minimalist has helped your injuries... so it must work for everyone    I've absolutely nothing against minimalist.. and now I'm back into my running, I expect I'll be having a try.  I'm happy for people to be keen on minimalist. But some people do seem overenthusiastic - which could well be damaging..

15/11/2012 at 10:13

Peter,

I would echoe the advice from slowkoala - have a gait analysis done.  Sweat shop are good, and it wil help your running style if you have the correct orthotic/mould in your shoe.  I have them in my trainers and ever since I have never had an injury - as   I used to suffer constantly from calf strains due to my over pronation.

I wouldn't rush into barefoot running - certainly try this by all means but if you do too much too soon you may cause yourself an injury - likely achilles.

Best of luck!

 

15/11/2012 at 10:48
Run Wales wrote (see)

avit wrote (see)

^^ yet another way the retail industry has brainwashed into thinking we 'need' something like this to stay healthy...

what on earth did we do before such things as these existed?!

What did we do before running shoes were invented?  Well generally, we walked around a bit, picking berries and nuts.  Occasionally we'd stalk and sprint to catch prey.  We certainly didn't subject our feet and legs to the stresses of running 50 miles a week on hard tarmac! 

The fanatical minimalists seem to overlook this. They always talk of running being a natural activity... and that we should be barefoot.. or near barefoot.

Fell running , trail running, cross country - these forms of running are a little nearer to natural activities for the human form. On the other hand, distance-running, 50 miles a week, on hard roads is an artificial sport... like tennis, rugby, motorcycle racing are artificial .

Funnily enough, the retail industry has brainwashed us into shoes that are pretty minimalist for this natural fell, trail and cross country running.  But for the 'artificial' activity of road running, this is where conventional supportive, cushioned shoes have generally become more useful.

Of course there's marketing hype to be found, just like the marketing of many products like computers, phones, cars and (dare I say it) minimalist shoes too.

I could write at length.. to explain things like... I said my glasses analogy was flippant at the time, so why pick up on it.  And that my post was not unhelpful - it just had a different view to yours. And the assertion that ALL flat feet are cause by wearing supportive shoes.   And the assertion that because there are numerous anecdotes, including your own, that say that minimalist has helped your injuries... so it must work for everyone    I've absolutely nothing against minimalist.. and now I'm back into my running, I expect I'll be having a try.  I'm happy for people to be keen on minimalist. But some people do seem overenthusiastic - which could well be damaging..

I accept your opinion but what you said about humans and running is total nonsense, in fact it is the complete oppostite of what you have said, it shows you have not done alot of or arent a natural runner. Humans did not stalk and sprint we are not built for that, we havent a high enough top speed compared to other animals so how would we have caught them? We ran for long periods of time to wear our prey out, we did this wearing nothing but barefoot or a thin sole for protection against sharp rocks etc. Do you not think that running on frozen ground, hard compacted trails are just the same as tarmac? yes they are and the cushioned running shoes are another lie.

They do not cushion at all they numb the feel for ground contact so the runner hits the ground harder when landing because the shoe numbs the pain- which is the cause of the OP hip back and knee problems. Dont believe me- go run your same route in barefoot landing on your heel.... you'll manage about 50ft...

Again the cushioned 'foot coffins' as barefoot runner call them suport and therefore weaken the feet and lower leg muscles, this has a knock on effect up the leg, coupled with the sharp landing forces giving the OP flat feet, and pains all over his body....

Todays gimic.

15/11/2012 at 12:29

I can't see how you can be just so evangelical about this.  My whole premise has been that, for this artificial activity of road running, minimalist is good for some people... but others need the support of a good well engineered shoe. You seem to see only a blinkered view IMO.

Incidentally, if you're going to call people 'brainwashed', then you have to be open to the same charge, but coming from the other side. Your utter refusal to accept road running shoe technology has its place (in my opinion a fairly large but not exclusive place) for sensible injury free road runners  - the opinion is certainly rather extreme.

Your assertion that I'm not a natural, or experience runner, because I hold a different view to you, is all a bit 'playground name calling'.

Endurance running on tarmac is IMO an unnatural activity. Contrary to your assertion, as our bodies evolved, it is widely accepted that we didn't move far on our feet...  largely gathering fruit and nuts from trees, bushes etc -  did some scavenging and some hunting.   The hunting was mainly done using the advantage of our large brains to catch animals by stalking and ambush.  With a short sharp sprint sometimes used either before spearing the prey - or to finish off a kill before an injured animal escaped.

You've selectively picked out a rare hunting technique - where humans hunted as a team to out-endure large animals. You've then extrapolated this to suggest this is how our entire species has evolved.  Well, I'm not a trained anthropologist, but have read enough to know that the big-brained, stalking/ambush behaviour is likely to have been hugely dominant.   And even when they did go for endurance, presumably the terrain was mixed, so many of the miles were not done on hard compacted trails or ice, as you suggest). 

I have to re-iterate again, I am far from anti-minimalist...  I've been seriously thinking that my next shoes are likely to be minimal (or in transition)... to give it a try.  It's clearly good for a lot of people - and I respect the people who advocate its benefits.

But I'm drawn into this discussion because I think the few (but often vocal) people who advocate the extreme view that virtually every runner should run minimalist are wrong, and could lead to injury to people like the OP, who had professional advice to use orthotics. And that can be offputting people coming into the sport, or damaging to people who could take a lot of pleasure from running, if only they wear the higher technology shoes.

Just read the post  immediately above yours.  For every person like you, who have benefited from going minimalist, there are people (in my humble opinion, many more) who are quietly benefitting from corrections made by the shoe technologies you so vehemently reject.

I'm out.

15/11/2012 at 13:49

You dont need a shoe to run! Its as simple as that and minimalist/barefoot is not a fad, its how we started off.

As for how we use to hunt you are wrong. We are built for long distant running not sprinting. How many times! How could we catch an animal when it has a higher top speed it is physically impossible! Go chase a dog at full sprint I bet you dont catch it. Then chase the dog at a steady pace it will soon give up.

We have evolved to run long distances, possessing the following features:

sweat glands

ability to carry water and food

achilles tendon

glutues muslces

ligament in the back of our heads to stop it bopping around

Stop spreading crap about stuff you dont understand.

Im not saying the OP should do barefoot running, I dont care in fact, but I bet if he did he would solve his orthotic problem.

 

 

15/11/2012 at 13:56

its quite simple science you seem to fail to understand Run wales, support it and it gets weaker, dont support it and it gets stronger... the end

Its like when you break an arm you support it in a cast when the cast comes off your arm is weak, this is the same as you going for a run without your trainers, your trainers are the cast ( a fancy branded 'latest tech' cast), take away your trainers and do the same run, its going to hurt because your feet and legs are weak.

Build up slowly as you would when rehabing a broken arm and eventually the arm becomes stronger... build up your running and eventually your feet, and legs become stronger.... the extra plus with running is your now doing it the natural way.

Go argue with that logic...its just plain stupid to think any other way.

15/11/2012 at 13:59

so begs the question from someone like me (who has been on both sides)... Why on earth would you run in fancy support shoes when it weakens your feet and legs!?!

15/11/2012 at 16:09

I got into terrible trouble by running in the wrong shoes. Get plantar fasciitis and could barely walk and still can't bare foot, even around the house. I now wear custom orthotics in all shoes including running shoes

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