A bit like sub-4 (but 15 minutes quicker)

Sub 3:45 Group

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06/11/2012 at 11:02

Here's my Paris plan. Based on 4 sessions - LSR, Recovery, Intervals, Tempo. It's worked before, it's working for my mate doing Florence, so hopefully it will delivery me to Paris.

You never know, it may work for someone else if it fits in with your work schedule etc? Biggest week is a potential 49 miles w/c 11/03/13.


     Day 1    Day 2     Day 3    Day 4  Day 5 Day 6 Day 7
session -  RecoveryCore/Cross Intervals Rest tempo LSR 

10/12/2012   5   Core/Cross   intervals   Rest   6    10   Rest
17/12/2012   5   Core/Cross   intervals   Rest   6    13   Rest
24/12/2012   5   Core/Cross   intervals   Rest   6    16   Rest
31/12/2012   5   Core/Cross   intervals   Rest   7    18   Rest
07/01/2013   5   Core/Cross   intervals   Rest   7    20   Rest
14/01/2013   5   Core/Cross   intervals   Rest   7    20   Rest
21/01/2013   6   Core/Cross   intervals   Rest   8    18   Rest
28/01/2013   6   Core/Cross   intervals   Rest   8    20   Rest
04/02/2013   6   Core/Cross   intervals   Rest   9    15   Rest
11/02/2013   6   Core/Cross   intervals   Rest   9    21   Rest
18/02/2013   6   Core/Cross   intervals   Rest   10  15   Rest
25/02/2013   6   Core/Cross   intervals   Rest   10  22   Rest
04/03/2013   6   Core/Cross   intervals   Rest   12  18   Rest
11/03/2013   6   Core/Cross   intervals   Rest   12  24   Rest
18/03/2013   6   Core/Cross   intervals   Rest   8   15    Rest
25/03/2013   6   Core/Cross   intervals   Rest   6   10    Rest
01/04/2013   4   5 easy          Rest      4 easy Rest Rest 26.2 in Paris!

06/11/2012 at 13:18

Come on SB, LS, get those 150-200 mile months up or you'll never catch the girls on here 

Edited: 06/11/2012 at 13:18
06/11/2012 at 13:59

Wey-Hey!! Euph is back! We really are getting the band back together.

What you been up to lad? I've entered my first marathon since I saw you in London in 2009.

Did intervals at lunchtime with the Florence Marathon colleague. 5 x 4 mins hard with 2 mins recoveries - 1 mile warm-up at each end. Total distance was 6.2 miles with the average pace for the whole thing being 7.12. Knackered now!



06/11/2012 at 14:34

LS I would think that you could easily do sub 1.40 if you can do 1.45 in training as long as you dont go off to quickly just remember to pace yourself..its a bit far for me to travel to help you I am affraid but remember start slow !!!!

Badger did you come up with that plan yourself ? do you think a tempo AND interval session is needed every week ? what does Freemers reckon on that one. My schedule has a LSR a medium LSR and a tempo OR a VO2 max session..not both in the same week

Hello Euph

Edited: 06/11/2012 at 14:35
06/11/2012 at 15:30

The intervals and tempo certainly work Nursey. My colleague has never trained with such intensity and is setting training PBs all over the place at the moment. Florence is in 2 weeks and he's in good form to hit a PB after just an 11 week plan.

That said, as the Paris campaign carries on, it may be smarter to replace one of the speed sessions for a mid-distance run at Steady to Tempo pace (Stempo) and then get back on the speed plan the following week. I did that last time in order to manage injury niggles etc.

As with any training plan, flexibility should be built in and common sense should prevail. Another pal did this plan for FLM11 after doing his first ever marathon with me in FLM09. He did 3.27 on his debut and did 3.15 last year.If it hadn't worked so well for me last time, I wouldn't be doing it again.

I blame Freemers for the 6 x 20 milers. She said something about doing that number years ago and it's stuck with me ever since. Works though!


06/11/2012 at 15:41

I think if you are restricting to 4 sessions a week it's worth making them all count, so I'd do the intervals and tempo, because you have the rest days to recover from them. I did more of your "stempo" runs, which with hindsight was out of laziness more than anything and not really sure I did enough true tempo runs.  Not sure of the order though - SB, would you always do the tempo the day before your long run?  I think there is some benefit in running a LSR on tired legs, but not sure I'd want to do that every week.

Hey, don't blame me for 6x20! This is the first time I've done that many.  I remember thinking you had a good method too of alternating 20's with 15's each week. Trouble is I never get the first 20 in early enough in the programme to be able to do that and get enough of them done,

Hi Euph   Are you still a fell runner these days?

All we need now is beders, clairster, JBSS, NickM....

06/11/2012 at 17:56

Forget the pacing help Nursey, what about that willie warmer you were gonna knit me 4 years ago ??
Euph, you muddy off roader, did you get lost in the woods for a few years??

Ladies, you are probably right with regard to sub 1.40, but I know I haven't done enough true tempo runs to be overly familiar if you like with deepest darkest zombie land, and as I race so rarely, my negative thoughts would be yelling in my ear! When I did my pb at Clova 5 or 6 years ago, I dragged another lady along with me at 7.30 pace. I remember at 10 miles her being amazed as she'd never run that fast before, so we'll see what race day and having a pacer does for me. I seem to be able to do what would be about 1.44's as standard on a Saturday now, so I'll see if with a bit of mental maths partway around, I can squeeze a few minutes off that. What I have noticed is that the increase in fitness has meant theres much less sign of a soft shoe shuffle towards the end, as Im comfortable with the distance. My number one aim has surely been achieved, i.e. beating my 2 mates, as I cant see them lowering pb's of 1.54 n 1.48 by that much....?
Was up in Grantown on Spey, Cockbridge, Tomintoul n Braemar today. A balmy 8 degrees compared to the freezing temps in Morris Dancing country. I'm sure what Jimmy Greaves referred to as chilly-jockoland will be back to normal very soon. Maybe by Saturday ?!

Off out now for a steady plod then that'll be it til Saturday.

20 years from now, if we are all still moving, I wont need to update my profile pic, and we'll be discussing tempo runs at 12 mins per mile...


6.72 miles @ 7.42 pace. Just ran at various paces to try n get a feel for how I'll feel running on Saturday. That pace would be a 1.41.27. Im not sure I'd have the confidence to set off any quicker. If I feel at the halfway bridge the way I felt tonight, Id be quite happy.

Edited: 06/11/2012 at 19:54
06/11/2012 at 19:54

This is the schedule I followed the year LS dragged me round http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=4432&PageNum=5

 I do miss out the doubles which are only scheduled in  a couple of times...I cant be doing with washing and straightening my hair twice a bloody day

I shall be doing the same for VLM 2013 it just made me feel very very strong especailly over the last 10k I did a 4 min negative split which I know isnt ideal, a neg split is only meant to be a min or 2 not 4 but I was kind of slowed down by some  chap for 21 miles who I felt sorry for he did try bless him  but I just couldnt handle the plodding pace any longer and had to leave him

LS / Badger have you ever used a heart rate monitor

Edited: 06/11/2012 at 19:57
06/11/2012 at 20:45
So are you doing your long run the day after your Tempo SB?
06/11/2012 at 20:53

It was warmer that day, so, unlike Saturday morning in the frost, I was carrying an awful lot more willy, hence the slower time.... You ladies have it easy.
Nope, never used a monitor Nursey. Doing faster midweek runs for me is a complex training plan! No Yahoo 800's etc for simpleton me. I think anything that involves me thinking about how fast Im going or how hard Im working is counter productive, as I run better when I just run n let my empty mind drift, instead of worrying that Ive set off too quick etc. I prefer the occasional nice surprise at the end of a run when you press stop.

Yours looks like Greek algebra to me!

I preferred my simple 10 miler Wednesday, 10 miler Friday, then 20 miler Sunday. 4 rest days, including 8 pints of Guinness on a Monday night. I followed every aspect of my plan religiously week after week!

Edited: 06/11/2012 at 20:58
06/11/2012 at 21:29

Its not complicated honestly...just lots of LSR really which suits me, I just need structure and a proper plan or I just plod around aimlessly  with that plan there is a purpose to each run...if Badger wrote his plan in paces and distances it would look more complicated than mine with all those interval sessions

Badger good luck if it were me though I would swap a core or interval session with a longer run each week...ie either do core then medium long run one week then  medium long run and intervals the next, I have read that that there is no need for all those speed sessions in marathon training...fine for 10k and halfs but marathon is more endurance based .

Edited: 06/11/2012 at 21:32
06/11/2012 at 21:58

I've been lurking from time to time and thought I'd de-lurk for a chat. You all look like your having fun training quite a lot for time of year for various events. Sure Paris will be a nice run SB and you should go well with years more knowledge since the last one. LS, I'm sure 1.40 or therabouts is on too with "on the day" performance bonus and competition. Good luck with the 7 Freemers, sure you can put last Sundays tough experiance behind you. NN, some huge miles planned, "starting at 50..."- gulp, sure it will provide a PB though. Big miles never fail, whereas other types of training are a bit mixed bag in my book.

You almost not wrong with lost in the woods LS, I've had a great year running the wooded trails of the Wolds 3 or 4 days a week (with 1 or 2 fillers in the town). The target being mountainous ultra-trail events in England and France - a 50, a 70, and a 60. With a steady build and the slow-pace required for trail miles with lots of hills I've managed over 200m the majority of months. The best bits have been my Tuesday hilly 6-10 milers, hitting 150ft to 300ft ascent and descent per mile and then attempting the same on Saturdays, slower but for LSR distances. And at least one "hard session" on a Thursday, which I don't think about, just turn up at club hard night and see what they're upto.

Completed 2 of my 3 target runs of the year, but the Alps beat me in the toughest - Sur les Traces des ducs de Savoie - where I waved the white flag at 50 miles. Neverending descents and then weather killed me. Best run of the year, before that, was probably the Lakeland 50 where I blew away all my targets! Post-Alps I got around the Hardmoors 60, which very specifically tenderises your quads with lots of runnable undulating trail, but then a ravine to dip steeply into and out of every few miles - The Yorkshire coast scenery made it all worthwhile. Despite lots of slow miles I managed to get a 10k PB in my only go and it was the sub-40 I could never get when I was training for it  So long slow miles don't make a long slow runner IMHO  I got a marathon PB at Hull too, but it wasn't up to expectations as I hadn't trained the right way for a road marathon.

Biggest challenge of the year though is yet to come, I'm going to be a dad sometime around late December - early January

Edited: 06/11/2012 at 22:02
06/11/2012 at 22:29

Is that your first Euph? I now feel a grizzled old veteran with 3 kids of 15, 13 n 11. They grind my gears lots of the time, but I cant imagine life without them. Get all your pbs in quick, as you'll naturally be spending more time with bubba number one, instead of squeezing in a cheeky 10 miler.

good luck!

06/11/2012 at 22:32


Having to look after a nipper will certainly impact your training. Good luck with that! 

Puffster - No, the only consecutive runs planned are recovery runs the day after LSRs. However, I'm sure there will be social/work/home reasons that shove a speed session the day before a LSR. Freemers has come up with an interesting concept there, worth thinking about. I will never do back to back speed sessions though, that can cause injury problems (someone on here told me that).

I've tried to keep my plan as basic as possible with some i-built flexibility. As I've said, the results for me and two mates just show that it works. When I've read other plans and tips, they all boil down to the same principles, speedwork, distance and recovery. Also, when DogFish Dave hit 3.15 on here, his training was very very similar to mine...and he was 50!! 

There will be a plateau effect on the intervals at some point (you're right Nursey) and that's when one speed session may change to "Stempo" or even general running. For the FLM09 campaign, the increased distance tempo session delivered spectacular results, including a Tuesday night after work 12 miler at 6.52 pace.

The speed sessions increase my stride length and cadence which also transfers to the longer stuff. The 4 runs per week suits me and fits in with everything else that I have to do. Every runner will eventually find a plan that suits them which might be more LSRs, streaking miles or just 3 regular runs per week. There's no silver bullet, just horses for courses I guess?


07/11/2012 at 11:15

I am getting really really annoyed...twice I have written a long post and lost it

Euph many congratulations on soon becoming a dad, boy/girl ? or are you waiting till the big day ? well done on the pbs too whats the marathon pb now ? and do you still see the old gang ?


Edited: 07/11/2012 at 11:15
07/11/2012 at 11:23

Ha managed to get that one done thought I would submit while the going was good.

Badger I am very impressed with your OLD mate I am surprised he can still walk let alone run at nearly 50 !! so what pace are those stempos ? half marathon or faster ?

LS imagine how I feel I have a 19 year old 31 year old and 3 grandsons

my eldest is now into running/cycling in a big way, after years of doing nothing and thinking I was mad !!

He recently did a tri topped off a tri  with  44 min 10k..thats after swimming 1 mile and biking 26, I am staying with them in Surrey at the moment  and monday after work he popped out for 67 mins in which time he ran 9.5 miles thats about 7.10 pace I think this time last year he couldnt keep up with me over 10k !! tables have turned...oh to be young


Edited: 07/11/2012 at 11:24
07/11/2012 at 12:44

Good on him Nursey, although I bet he's doing tempo and intervals to run at that pace?

The Stempo sessions vary in pace depending on where I am in the program at that time. Back at the start of September, I was struggling to get under 8min/miles for any sort of run, so a stempo back then would have been 7.40-7.50 pace. After several weeks of speedwork and some long stuff, we did an 8 mile stempo last Friday at 7.10 pace. At Tempo, I would have been sub-7s for that and it felt good! 

I remember you being in Surrey previously. After you belittled the 7 Hills Road, I've never held it in the same high regard as I did before. It will be on miles 10 and 11 during my Paris LSRs, mere light bumps compared to the Devonian mountains!


07/11/2012 at 19:58
The good thing about turning 50 is you go right up the rankings in your new age category.

Congratulations Euph, have you moved to be running in the wolds?

Re plans, I have never been able to do the kind of miles NN does, but I do well on 3 runs per week plus a gym night. I've always wanted to try those famous lunchtime sessions SB I might be able to get away with it on a Friday.

My elder son has taken up running after moving out last year, I think he gets bored in the evenings tbh and it's a cheap way of not spending the evening in front of the tv.

No running at all at the moment though I have quite a chesty cough.
07/11/2012 at 20:33

Sb ..no actually its really annoying as he only runs twice a week the rest of his training is cycling and swimming nothing specific just doing everything at full pelt  I have suggested some longer slow running but it has fallen on deaf ears (he never did as he was told  ) his goal is a spring marathon sub 1.35 he does a weekly 13.1 in 1.42 at the moment, mind you it is flat round here ..did I already mention that

I like the sound of stempo runs I could manage those I think not too full on ..I struggle with speedwork as I cant get to club very often and its hard to stay focused on speed on your own...well it is for me.

Puffy you do indeed do well on 3 runs ...dont tell me all fast stuff  hope you feel better soon, I guess I am lucky my kids are grown up and with my shift patternI get plenty of day time training done , if I worked 9 till 5 things would be very different I am sure.

Edited: 07/11/2012 at 20:35
07/11/2012 at 22:05

Thanks all , me and Clare (not Clairster btw) are very happy and all is going well. Just wish I found home decoration, shopping, etc, as much fun as trail running. To answer various questions, yes is my first and we haven't found out if a boy or girl. Knowing the baby is on the way I've really made the most of running this year, I surpassed last years mileage (my previous highest) during my first mile of training this week.

LS - Yep, I'm pretty inventive with training though and have started run-commuting to work more with my work gear in my backpack. So makes a good short run there and back each day and the weight of gear adds a bit of extra challenge.

SB - I won't run back-to-back harder runs (e.g. a tempo and then reps, or reps then LSR). Does make sense, I know runners who make great strides doing my clubs track sesson Wednesday and hard (reps, hills, tempo, etc..) session on trail or road Thursday - but they pay in injury time!

NN - Glad you've been a good influence on the family, obviously got your running genes. Mara PB is 3.35, well out of sync with all my shorter distances and I should have done a lot better this year, just trained wrong, paced and fuelled badly. My only bad event run this year.

Puffy - Get well soon and also well done on your influence. Wolds are the other side of Hull from me, but plenty of light to esacpe their summer nights before a late tea. And on Saturdays I'vealways been a fan of using long offroad events for training, so a 30-60min skip to various parts of the Wolds is actually pretty local by comparison, to me.

Saw your mention of cadence SB. I've been running in more minimalist shoes including some puma 'fashion' trainers and some bargain vivobarefoot (£27 cheapest shoes I've got for awhile) on some runs every week. The more barefoot footsrike makes you naturally increase cadence as stride pattern changes as you land more forefoot and it appears to be delivering benefits.

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