Auviour Paris: So long and thanks for the cobbles

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25/02/2013 at 13:10

CONGRATS To all Choisty on epic mileage. SB on a great easy half well done. RR on a training session with the great Sam. Ten on epic long miler in very cold conditions and Mike too hard at it. Fantastic running guys well done.
My weekend was busy but managed a 7 very hilly run with daughter and 9 on Friday. Not enought time to get out for longer.......undertraining is good according to SB hopefully!!!   Did some miles of the GG in freezing weather on Sunday afternoon flip my face was frozen off when I got home. 
SB I have read that book awesome runs all over the world just need to live three lifetimes to do them all...........................

25/02/2013 at 14:54

Hey mcs - I'm becoming a big advocate for training at a level your body can actually physiologically respond to as opposed to just keep up with, whilst trying not to break!  You've had a lot on lately and I bet you'll run better for not overdoing the training on top of that - getting to the start line uninjured and in good health is worth its weight in gold!

Know what you mean about the book - I think we may be just randomly opening it and making it a policy to do whatever race we land on - though we have some that really jump out already marked....

As for my undertaining I worked out this lunchtime that I haven't continuously run for more than 4 miles since September (been jog walking as HR dictated) and my longest jog/walk has been 10.5 miles back in January - hence the giant and lovely surprise!!!  The only speedwork I've done have been the 4 cross countries that I did - everything else has been at a HR below 151. (Last year - pretty much every run was 152 +)

25/02/2013 at 17:19

Wow lot's of solid running going on at all pace levels and altitude!

SB - another HR convert here....I went through that process in summer of 2011 and haven't looked back since. I am absolutely sold on it and my favourite mantra is "train slow, race fast" 

I had the same sort of result as you with new PB's in spring 2012 with no speedwork at all. I ran more miles, but slower miles and yet PB'd from 5k all the way through to HM.

Some might say, it was just because I was fitter on higher mileage, but I think that misses the point that the higher mileage was possible because I was training slower, therefore not injured or burnt out...

25/02/2013 at 17:36

LOL Choisty - 117m in a week??!!! You monster.  I bet you still spent less actual time running than most of us too   

SB - It took me about five weeks for heart rate training to really kick-in and make progress once I had started it.  This was exactly what John L Parker Jr. had predicted!  It was amazing to be running my previous "hard" (unknown to me) paces at a genuine easy level.  Had I not learned about heart rate training, I would have eventually burned myself out again and given up the running.

Having finally found out how to set-up my garmin, today I ran my first ever VO2Max (interval) session outdoors!  My target pace was 7:51 for each 0.4m interval, and my actual pace was 7:51/7:51/7:51/7:41/7:48.  My heart rate peaked at 165bpm and averaged 152/153/155/156/158bpm.  The total run was eight miles including 2m warm-up and 3m cool-down.  My only surprise is how low my heart rate was - should really be hitting 178bpm for the intervals???   I'm not going to make any changes to my pacing plan just yet, though.

Really enjoyed running intervals outdoors.  Like the strides, this was much more fun than running on the treadmill (see how I am being converted?? ).  I'm very pleased how it went, because I thought I might struggle after running 22m a couple of days ago.  Gotta love the P&D program!

25/02/2013 at 17:46

Mike - great running following the tempo session!  Maybe one day I'll get a proper assessment done like yours for the HRM training.  Sounds like it's working for you.

MCS/Oscarr - good luck for the GG.  Looking forward to seeing the Wall training progress too Oscarr.

SB - I'm a bit surprised at the lack of speedwork?  It's good to have a blast and really improves the HR fitness quicker than slow running alone.  The plan I originally followed had just one day a week with a hard session working at a heart rate above the threshold floor, and this consistently raised my speed at which I could train slow.  If that makes sense (I know what I mean )?  

25/02/2013 at 18:32

Slow, slow, slow is it then?  By default i will be doing this over the next 4 months of endurance work but will be doing one session a week of speed/tempo work - i am not convinced that mixing in a speed session is a bad thing, quite the reverse, but maybe slowing the other runs down will benefit along the lines Sleepy describes.  Interesting, very interesting.  Think i will need to run with an imaginary Sleepy on my shoulder nagging me all the way .

25/02/2013 at 18:37

That's really reassuring guys - brilliant to hear - I will persevere.  Ten - I think the reason there's been no speedwork thus far is just because I was in a ultra plan base phase - I'll soon be doing HMP and MP 1 - 2 mile efforts but cos it's for an ultra - I need to focus on completing the mileage (as slow as I need to) without trashing myself!

Am totally hoping it'll give me an amazing platform to springboard to PBs in the autumn (gonna focus on Mike's results while I chase 'em).

My favourite analogy so far is : how can you expect to be fit at the top of the hill if you're not fit at the bottom (which I translate in terms of low HR at the bottom, max at the top).  I think a lot of us are guilty of training at the mid to top end without putting the base in place.  But without it ...

Right next victim due soon... having some awesome results with my regular massage guinea pigs - one lady has been able to stop taking diazepam for her back for the fist time in years - and all because of a few hours (not all at once) of work on her muscles.  Very satisfying - am liking this new career option!



25/02/2013 at 21:54
Interesting points about training slow, I am an advocate of a multi speed approach, so easy will be easy, I can chat and my heart rate will hardly touch three figures (although I haven't used a HRM in a couple of years) but LT is hard work and reps for VO2 max leave me gasping and wanting to vomit, strides get my HR to near its max at around 200, must do a test. ten if you fancy sorting your HR I'm happy to help.

SB your book sounds v dangerous
MCS did you hear Becky James talk about the chimp on radio 4 this morning looks like the British cycling team use the book too
26/02/2013 at 09:11

Dr Peters is the team physc Doc of the British Cycling Team and he wrote the book The Chimp Mind..............still not finished been too busy lately must get it finished.

If anyone wants to come along and do the GG a couple of my neighbours in the village have places and cant do the race. Just let me know..............Go on you know you want to Saturday 9th March 10am.

26/02/2013 at 10:42

Choisty  - my slow training is for the base load then I have to mix it up as you do so well. In fact for this campaign, I did rather more speed work early on in December and the extended the distances in Jan & Feb. Most training manuals will have us do it the other way round.

Gentle 7m recovery this morning, almost felt too hot with no easterly wind to chill the bones. Ran it in 8:45 pace

Sports massage 8:00 am tomorrow - long overdue!

26/02/2013 at 10:56

Choisty/Mike/sleepy - my schedule for the Abingdon race this year will start after The Wall so i will have a very good base and the one i am going to use is Matt Fitzgerald Brain Training which builds by introducing a steady increase in speed and tempo work combined with LSRs - pretty standard really and very similar to other schedules; i like it cos you can see a clear progression over the weeks something i don't think the RW ones do.

26/02/2013 at 11:56

Oscarr - not familiar with Matt Fitz but it sounds logical and the base traning wll definitely carry through as it did for me from VLM to Abingdon.

FWIW - I am using P&D (18 wk up to 55m/w) as my guide but I do mix it up to fit in with things lke the XC series, and I love racng so do rather more than the recommended 2 races!

By the tme I get to Boston, I will have done 11 races (inc xc) from mid-Nov to end March and not counting the odd parkrun

26/02/2013 at 14:15

12m MLR this morning.  I'm finding that all my runs are now on the very low side of my heart rate range.  I'll see how the weekends race goes before reconsidering my training paces.

The P&D schedules also show a very clear progression with the training broken down into mesocycles.  I'm finding that my recovery after tough sessions has been phenominal compared to other plans I've followed.  I can't quite believe that I knocked out a comfortable interval session just a couple of days after the 22m run.

26/02/2013 at 15:44

I have a challenge for you oscarr - I challenge you NOT to run faster than 10 min/miles at Grindleford.  (Ok it's hilly so you can be slower BUT NOT faster).  Set your watch on the average pace and keep it slower than 10!  I KNOW you can go faster but the challenge is for you to see if you can keep yourself reined in. That should mean a finish time of 3.30 or more...

Just remember back to Belper - how horrible you felt that last mile but yet you'd zoomed off and left me behind in the middle.  I have my theories on your body being fab at running on carbs but not being very good at metabolising fat.  I dare you... the gauntlet has been thrown...

You can go fast after the Wall... maybe I will gaffer tape our ankles together for Coniston - I'm planning nice sedate 9 min miling for that - followed by a 3½ hour walk the next day if anyone''s up for it???

Ten - gotta love a good rate of recovery - I had to fast walk my hour this morning to keep my HR down but don't care...


26/02/2013 at 17:18

You're on !!!  Just got back from a nice slow 8 miler at just over 10 mpm - any slower and i would have been walking .

For GG i plan to take longer than 3.5 hrs so will try and keep slower than 10mpm.

No way will i be doing Coniston at 9mpm - if i'm travelling that far then i've got to give it a bit of welly at least.  I'm up for the walk on Sunday if Reiki is ok as we will be driving back south after and it depends what time she needs to be home - reckon we could at least fit in a longish recovery run in the morning.

You're right (aren't you always!?!) about my physiology - with all the long runs i've done it's the fat metabolism that gets me and that's why i put so much store on getting calorie intake on the run for the long ones - having said that i seem to be able to go very long as long as slow so should be good for slow Ultras if i can train myself to run slow enough.

27/02/2013 at 10:05
Wow! Just got caught up again.

Very interesting discussion. I am with you SB on the importance of being able to absorb training as opposed to merely survive it. But my approach is more of A scaled down version of Choistys with LT and VO2 max sessions featuring prominently, in fact I have in the past three days managed one of each plus an easy run of 6 miles with strides.

Am just planning for Coniston, work has been outrageous, I have 5 different things going on tonight simultaneously and all involving teenagers

So I had booked accommodation from Thursday and will have a look at trains to go up on Thursday if I can return with you on Sunday Oscarr. I would like to travel both ways with you ideally but also fancy a mini rest after a stressful few MK the with no time off at all.

As to timings, I need to be back in London by mid afternoon as I have a 6am start on Monday, but am negotiable on that. I'm guessing that you would want to drive to Reading, maybe there's a natural place to dump me en route rather than my having to return from Reading.

More soon am at hospital with my foot and bring called in.
27/02/2013 at 10:43
Aha so the MK above was my phone trying to convince me to do that half on 10 March. I meant months though!

Hospital appointment didn't last long as I am not diabetic, something I already knew. Had a good chat with the podiatrist though.

Now off to work.

Meant to say earlier that I see a lot of progress and potential in many of the gang here, also that I think I'm like Oscarr on the carb metabolism.

My brother is so fat adapted he doesn't have more than a few sips IV water during a marathon. By the time I finish I've had two meals, no wonder it takes a rad longer.

Am pondering whether to unleash a Zipvit at halfway on Sunday. The price us two nights of disrupted sleep.

I learned on Sunday that the max caffeine amount for any race is 3mg per kilo of body weight, so a Zip is right at my max all on its own.

Am wondering if it would be better to space out my allocation, especially for VLM, or whether one mega hit at mile 17 say would be optimal.

Any thoughts?
27/02/2013 at 12:01

Hi reiki - I would say save it and only take one with caffeine in it 90 mins before the end.  That's when you most need it...

oscarr - if you're good at Grindleford - I may consider letting you loose at Coniston - however - just think on... if your ultra schedule is anything like mine you need to be able to go on to do over 8 hours of training the following week (without pushing your body to the point of exhaustion).  Coniston is NOT the goal - it is going to be a lovely weekend away training with friends - and YES I AM always right LOLOLOLOLOLOLO

I have an exciting run ahead this lunchtime - am due to do 75 minutes including 2 miles at MP.  My legs are still a little tight but I will give it a go... A little tester before I start my programme in earnest next week - will be interesting to see what my pulse is like at MP!

Am still grinning to myself occasionally thinking back to last Sunday - I have locked on to the way I was feeling - just tootling along thinking; "this is awesome, I feel great"  - can't wait to try and recapture that - though the more I repeat it to myself the better I feel anyway! Might become my new mantra!  Think a ½ PB attempt may be on the cards later this year!


27/02/2013 at 12:59
I think one caffeine gel is enough in a marathon for the big push. I take mine at 23 and let the legs feel the benefit
27/02/2013 at 13:16

I tend to be similar to Oscarr I reckon at mile 18, if not a couple of miles earlier start to weaken!!! Guess more carbs and more food on the go will be essential for 21 miles. How do you Choisty run a marathon on a couple of gels? Guess metabolism, mine is quick, genetics and training are the deciding factors. I defo dont run long enough so thats my issue but I do start to run out of fuel in the late teens. Though training this last few weeks I haven't really used gels or anything so if I get some in for  GG I should reap the benefits.  I am going to take it steady at GG for the first half then see how I fell, the good thing for me is I know where the big hills are coming and know I need to save energy for those. 3.30 would be nice to do but not really that fussed just looking forward to being out there and enjoying a race. Whats your half PB SB?

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