Paris marathon 2013 here we go! A.W's Sub 3 attempt!

Hi Steve - thanks. Yes - I overtook her in the final mile. Had a chat with her afterwards. I think she was pleased with her run - a PB on that course in that wind was no mean feat.

Hey there lovely you!!!!....Great to catch up with you yesterday!!!!.....It was a fab day!!!!.....Lokking forward to the next get together!!!!!......

Steve - Just to keep you posted, my foot was sore after yesterdays run, and it is still sore today but not as bad. I've emailed Sarah and she recommends that I rest for a couple of days and see how it reacts after a massage that I've booked for tomorrow. It's just the tendinitis that flared up after all the snow and ice running.

Better to rest a couple of days now than make it into a bigger problem. Sarah says cross training should be fine, so if you want me to do something else to substitute the runs over the next couple of days I can do that? Or re organise the week so I still get tomorrows quality session in if I can run later this week?

I hope a couple of days off will sort it and will be all good by the second half of the week.

Hey Alex - sorry to hear about the slight niggle you're suffering. Given how well your training seems to be going, a couple of days off, although frustrating, will definitely not do you any harm (and might actually do some good). It sounds like your training programme will be tweaked to incorporate some cross training. However, it would be really helpful if you could also post what your schedule would have been if you had not been injured for those of us who have been shamelessly copying your programme! Good luck with the recovery and look forward to reading more of your excellent progress towards a goal I'm sure you're going to smash.

Ah sorry, completely forgot to post it up yesterday!

Here it is!

Week 7:
Mon Jan 28: 5M easy or rest

Jan 29: 5x2km in approx 7:30-7:45 starting every 10 mins. 9M in total

Jan 30: 11M steady in 7:30-8:00

Jan 31: 9M with middle 3M at HM pace

Feb 1: 5M easy or rest

Feb 2: 8M relaxed fartlek

Feb 3: 21M slow in 8 min miles but a few miles at marathon pace

week total: 63M

Denis Duret wrote (see)

RUTH MCKEAN wrote (see)

. Are you using caffeine gels?

Can you have 4 caffeine gels or would that be too much caffeine?

Hi Denis Duret, Thanks for post.

It will depend on the caffeine content in the gel. Most gels people are using on this forum are between 30-50mg per gel. I would suggest you use no more than 3mg per kilogram body weight so if you  weigh 70kg then no more than 210mg (70 x 3).  So make sure you work out the basics how much carbs you are taking on per hour and how much caffeine you will be consuming. Hope this helps.

Ruth
A.W wrote (see)

Running is full of highs and lows. Unfortunately today was a low! I had a terrible run. It actually started out ok, I ticked off the first 6 miles at 7.30 pace and felt pretty good. In the back of my head I knew all was not well though, I could feel my stomach was not right and as time went on it was getting worse.

By 7 miles, before I had even taken on any fuel/gel I had to make a dash for the public toilet and from then on it was an awful run. Today was meant to be a trial run of my fueling strategy for Paris, I plugged on and tried to keep to the plan taking a gel about half a mile after my pit stop, things just got worse though and I had problems with stomach cramps for the rest of the run, had to make another 2 unscheduled stops and decided enough was enough at 18.5 miles - was meant to be doing 21.

I did take another gel at 12.5 miles, but I'm no further forward in knowing if they are right for me due to the stomach problems. I dont think it was the gels causing the problem as I had to stop before I'd even taken one, and I've used the same gels on a previous run with no adverse reaction at all!

I'm sure Ruth might be able to advise better and give me some idea! May be last evenings meal, I didn't get to eat until quite late (9.30ish) and I did eat loads then was out running early at 8am after my normal breakfast. Had a takeaway pizza which is quite unusual as I usually make my own, so have a feeling I may have overloaded with foods which my body's not used to and not reacted well??

I also do not think it's the gels.  If it was the gels you would not still be feeling rough the next day  & you felt not right before you even took a gel. The food the night before is not your usual but it is likely that you may have something hanging around or as you have mentioned the food the night before did not agree with you. But it will mean trying the gels again in another long run as it is worth ironing out any problems you may have. I think good call to end run early, you are highly motivated and would only do that if felt you needed to.

A.W

As discussed aim is improved recovery. We discussed easy recovery drinks & foods to have straight after long Sunday runs and intense intervals/rep running, even before shower. The aim of your recovery should be  10-20g of protein & 40-50g of carbs then followed  up with usual lunch/dinner no more than 90-120 minutes later. The below list is not exhaustive but foods A.W likes and are easy to grab/make up.

1. For goodness shake (3:1) powder version. This has around 17g of protein & 50g of carbs. It also helps start replacing fluid.   
2. Cliff chocolate ship bar (10g protein & 40g Carbs) and a small banana for good measure.
3. A pint of skimmed milk with chocolate powder added (around 19g protein & 45-50g carbs) or one pint of skimmed milk with a medium banana would be around 20g protein and 50g carbs.

I think this is an important aspect of A.W diet for both recovery and immunity benefits.

ZiggyTheSpider wrote (see)

A.W wrote (see)

I then had a meeting with Ruth,

I know Ruth is going to post up details of what we went over so wont go over much. We talked about my recovery for the most part and how important it is that I get a better approach to my post hard session nutrition. In short I'm going to address this by making sure I get a recovery shake immediately after the session to start recovery and then follow that up with a snack or lunch depending on when the run is.

The other main point was about my race day plans for fueling and carb loading/pre race eating. I'm going to trial my race day nutrition today on my long run, taking gels at 7, 12/13 and 18 miles. I will then also try a gel during my half marathon to make sure when I'm running hard I can stomach the gels.

Hi AW, maybe Ruth will go into to more detail when she posts but I was wondering what sort of recovery drink she suggested that you take?

I sometimes take a whey protein shake with skimmed milk after a hard session but I wonder if I would be better taking something with more carbs in it.

Good luck on the rest of your training!!

Whey protein or any animal based protein food is a great recovery protein (better than plant based ones generally such beans and pulses etc ) however there is no evidence you would ever need anything above 20-25g of protein in a recovery snack (plus skimmed milk  will increase protein again). You may be paying over the odds for little in return. You should try and space protein out over the day as it is an important source in your diet. It is also important that if you do not eat enough carbs to cover your needs you need a higher protein diet. If not clear please ask more questions.

Ruth

Ruth

A.W

Could you check the GU gels you are using are  20mg per gel and not 40mg of caffeine per gel (thought that the flavour you are currently using are the double caffeine ones? - 40mg per gel). Just want to check as even the 40mg would be fine to use but would like to know in case there is issue with stomach etc.

Plan  at  moment is a gel in Paris at miles: 6,11, 16 & 21 this is a total of 100grams of carb or 33g per hour which as you are well trained may well be enough. As we discussed I would like you to carry 5 in case you lose one or feel need another one.

Will post a carb loading day later this week/ early next week so you can practice before half in Feb - this  should be your full dress rehearsal for Paris. Race breakfast, what you eat the day before etc 

Have a good few days and sorry to any one if missed any nutrition questions,  bring to my attention again! 

Hey Alex.......good to see you at training day. I hope the two days rest will sort out your tendonitis and you get back on track straight after. 

Ruth: Apologies as you've probably covered this off before but in line with your guidelines on caffeine intake what's the guide for carbs per body weight (kg) for running a marathon?

I'm 5ft7 and 62kg and aiming for 3hr10. In previous maras I've generally taken a gel every five miles from 5 onwards (typically Lucozade gels (45g total)) alongside sips of water and a small bottle or two of whatever sports drink is on offer (eg Powerade at Brighton). This has generally worked ok for me but wonder if I've been abit light on the carb intake. 

Hi Ruth,

Thanks for the info. Just checked the gels and they are definitely listed as having 40mg caffeine. Here's the product info from the GU site.

Some great info from Ruth here. sorry to hear foot sore and having a few days off at this stage will not affect your marathon and indeed may do you good. Hopefully now snow gone, you will be back to normal once you have let foot settle.

Ruth,

Thanks for the feedback. I am using Shotz Energy Gel (Wild Bean) and it has 80mg (http://shotz1.com/products/shotz-energy-gel/flavours/wild-bean/). I am about 80kg and I am planning to use 4 gels so I will take 3 gels with Caffeine and a 4th one without. Those gels have 29.8g of Carbohydrate so I will be taking 119g in about 3 hours.

I'm a bit out of the loop with your training AW, just had a quick skim back and I see you are having a couple of issues at the moment. Sorry to hear that, but don't worry. We all miss days here and there with niggles and bugs. Had some issues myself lately and am only able to catch up on the forums today as I've had to call in sick today having been up all night. These things are sent to try us!

RUTH MCKEAN wrote (see)

ZiggyTheSpider wrote (see)

A.W wrote (see)

I then had a meeting with Ruth,

I know Ruth is going to post up details of what we went over so wont go over much. We talked about my recovery for the most part and how important it is that I get a better approach to my post hard session nutrition. In short I'm going to address this by making sure I get a recovery shake immediately after the session to start recovery and then follow that up with a snack or lunch depending on when the run is.

The other main point was about my race day plans for fueling and carb loading/pre race eating. I'm going to trial my race day nutrition today on my long run, taking gels at 7, 12/13 and 18 miles. I will then also try a gel during my half marathon to make sure when I'm running hard I can stomach the gels.

Hi AW, maybe Ruth will go into to more detail when she posts but I was wondering what sort of recovery drink she suggested that you take?

I sometimes take a whey protein shake with skimmed milk after a hard session but I wonder if I would be better taking something with more carbs in it.

Good luck on the rest of your training!!

Whey protein or any animal based protein food is a great recovery protein (better than plant based ones generally such beans and pulses etc ) however there is no evidence you would ever need anything above 20-25g of protein in a recovery snack (plus skimmed milk  will increase protein again). You may be paying over the odds for little in return. You should try and space protein out over the day as it is an important source in your diet. It is also important that if you do not eat enough carbs to cover your needs you need a higher protein diet. If not clear please ask more questions.

Ruth

Ruth

Thanks for taking the time to respond Ruth.

Your answer makes perfect sense and confirms what I already suspected. The ratio of protein to carb that my recovery drink contains is totally different to what you have reccomended and I'll replace it with something that has more carbs

Hope your tendonitis get better AW, if in doubt have an extra day off, rather than push it and do more damage.