Paris marathon 2013 here we go! A.W's Sub 3 attempt!

SUper time at Reading Yasunga - sub 80 minutes seems very close if you didn;t push it for the first 11.

Brilliant half marathon PB Andy - really pleased for you and a massive chunk off it too. Take it easy in the next couple of days.

Like the idea of taking a train out and running back AW. Those mile splits look very well controlled. I bet you felt like you were holding back?

Another busy weekend for you Steve - don't know how you keep it up - probably a key to your consistent sucess with getting the sub 3's!

Had a good 20 mile training run this morning and got an unofficial PB of 1.26.17, alhtough had to stop for traffic lights/crossing roads and flooded paths which kind of broke up the momentum. First 8 miles were steady pace of 7.40/7.45 then did next 5 in 7.10 - 7.00, then 1 mile steady, and 5 miles sub 7 pace and a 1 mile warm down. This was weird as mile 19 was 6.40pace and then I eased off and the last mile which felt relaxed came out at 6.58 pace?

Rob Cope wrote (see)

Many thanks for your great answers, Steve and Ruth. I tend to focus on refuelling my carbs after a race but I've never considered protein replacement immediately after.

Ruth - after most of my half marathons and both marathons for past four years I've suffered from fluctuating temperatures and general feeling of being very run down. I eat a lot of fresh fruit but I've never taken any other vitamin or zinc supplements. I also try to eat a lot more foods high in zinc, such as turkey, which has definitely helped to a certain degree. I'm fine during weeks/months of training and been very fit/healthy this winter, but it always hits me after a big race.

I'm feeling a lot better today, but Monday to Thursday my temperature was all over the place.

Thanks again.

Rob, yes you can try protein in post race but as long as carb intake sufficent and you then eat protein within the next couple of hours post race you will very likely be ok however if don't have enough carbs post race then you do need to be on the ball with protein (at least 10-20g of animal protein may be best- meat or milk or fish may be best source post race).  But my view is try and have about 50g of carbs and 10-20g of protein post race or as soon as you can.

In regards zinc, you require zinc to help fight off invading virus & bacteria as well as in the metabolism of protein, fats & carbohydrates (there are other functions we also need zinc for). A severe zinc deficiency would be extremely rare in a healthy athlete but it remains a commonly used supplement in sport due to potential immunity benefits. The best sources of zinc are shell fish, meat (red meat has more than white meat) whole grains & fortified breakfast cereals. However compounds called phytate’s present in plant based foods bind zinc and impairs its uptake, therefore zinc absorption is 20-40% higher from fish and meat than whole grains and other plant foods high in zinc.

In a very recent large scale review of zinc it was concluded that zinc administration within 24 hours of onset of symptoms of the common cold reduces the duration and severity of the common cold in healthy people. However the review was unable to make firm recommendations about the dose, formulation and duration that it should be used for.

If you are going to supplement then taking a zinc supplements up to 15mg a day (as a sole supplement or within a regular multi vitamin & mineral) is very unlikely to cause any side effects and may provide some immunity protection. However zinc when taken at high doses (more than 25mg) for a prolonged period of time can lead to severe medical problems such as stomach ulcers, problem with cholesterol, anemia, nausea, impaired immunity and interference with the absorption of other nutrients. Never take high doses of zinc for more than a week without medical advice.  Hence I suggest if you take a supplement you take 10mg a day on a regular basis and see if this helps. I might also suggest that you take an extra vit C boost 2-3 weeks out form these races For example a study has shown that runners taking 600mg vitamin C supplement each day for 3 weeks leading up to ultra-marathon (90km) significantly reduced incidences of infections 2 weeks post race. And another  study found that taking 1500mg per day of vitamin C for 12 days prior to half or full marathon in very hot conditions concluded that the vitamins C group helped preserve immune function by reducing cortisol secretion during exercise (a stress hormone which can have a detrimental effect on immunity). Alt

.....Although this study did not show reduced incidences of colds it did appear to benefit the immune response to exercise in extreme conditions so although not exactly matching your problems in all types of races, it may be worth a trial? However, it has also been shown that cortisol can be reduced by ingesting carbohydrate food or beverage during intense & prolonged training runs or races as carbohydrate reduces cortisol secretion during exercise (carbohydrate intake was accounted for in these studies so the benefit of vitamin C was additive). Therefore if you do regular long runs and suffer a lot of immunity problems I would encourage using a carbohydrate based drink/ food and while not ignoring other triggers known to increase infection risk, such as lack of sleep, travel, severe mental stress, poor diet including lack of fruit and vegetables, weight loss or overtraining. In short you could use vitamin C supplement before these races race but only short term for the event rather than regular supplementation (instead just keep up or increase brightly coloured fruit & veg) . If if think it is worth a try: suggest 10mg of Zinc (and if wish you could take this on a regular basis or take within a multi vitamin and mineral) and then 2-3 weeks before add in up to 1000mg of vit C (this dose not necessary for any longer than this, just expensive waste in my view). Just trying to give an idea of evidence/my thinking behind why it might be worth trying the above.

A.W wrote (see)

Sorry to hear that KR, doesn't set you up for a good race when your late for the start but you still got in a decent time.

Sounds like your back on track Yasunaga?

Hi Ruth, yes that will be fine re. Fridge and milk. Restaurant will be fine whatever I'm sure, going to keep it simple anyway, just a tomato and basil sauce for me!! Question for you Ruth, Im finding the day after having bread at an evening meal I get a bit of stomach issue when running. It feels like Im still full and heavy, could this be eating too much bread? I do probably eat quite a lot of bread if its with an evening meal.

Bread these days is mostly heavily processed hence why always better to have this in moderation and for some they do have stomach issues when have too much so the answer I tend to give to people is to reduce and in your case eat very little the night before runs. I also suggest if can and easy to do buy from a traditional bakers or make your own! The fact you don't have this issue with pasta or other gluten or wheat food would make me think it is the processing of the bread (and what I would hear about most when other investigations have not found any allergy to be present with this food) or the amount you eat compared to a pasta meal?

Hope last long run when well!

Last Long run went really well thanks Ruth.

I think to be on the safe side for my pre marathon food plan on Saturday I will swap the bread and jam I had planned for before bed snack with my mid morning snack so I'm not having any bread based products too late.

So will have a Banana and Yoghurt in the evening instead along with my Weetabix.

Sounds like you were very busy this weekend Steve. I don't know how you fit everything in, I look at the times you post sometimes and wonder when you sleep!!! Glad the hamstrings ok.

Another great run AndyV, a PB at 80% effort means still plenty to come! I find running downhill quite difficult and find myself jarring my legs a bit on steeper sections. Its not nice when you get the shakes after hard efforts, I try and get something to eat really soon after a hard race if possible, I like the goody bags which have an energy bar or banana or something in as this usually does the trick.

A good strong 20 miler KR. Nice paces, I found when I moved my pace on to sub 7's yesterday it was a challenging pace for the first mile but then I was able to relax and settle into the pace and it felt pretty comfortable. I think the body just takes a while to adjust. Sometimes even the smallest change in pace up or down can make all the difference with how comfortable you feel too.

What a superb answer, Ruth. That's so helpful. Thank you very much. I'm clearly not looking after myself properly on the run-up to bigger races compared with training, so I'll follow your advice.

I felt much better by Saturday and did a parkrun - albeit in the wind and rain, which possibly wasn't very sensible - but glad I did it.

AW - congrats on a superb last long run. I'm following your progress with great interest. Good to see KR and AndyV doing really well, also. Excellent stuff.

My 5 mile recovery run today went by without any issues. Everything seems fine after yesterdays long run, thought I might be a bit more tired and achy in the legs, but felt fine and ticked along at 8 minute miles easily.

We will see how I feel for tomorrows 10 x 800's though!

That's great you have seemingly recovered ok - you are in better shape than me. I just did 2 very slow miles today but have aged a bit in last 24 hours!

Suggest a gentle start tomorrow.In terms of sub-3 remember 2:59 is good enough for the session so perhaps start with a 3:00 and then gradually pick up if you feel ok.

Rob, I used to get the same after every race effort. It would take me 2 or 3 days to recover. Not so much from a muscular perspetive but from an immune system way.

I found that I was not repleneshing well enough inmediately after races or similar hard efforts.

AW, it must be a real relief and a great joy to have survived the hardest weeks without injury.

Mentally I always love the start of taper knowing all the hard work is behind me.

Cheers Yasunaga. That's exactly right - it's my immune system rather than muscular. This is why I follow this thread, even though I'm not a sub-3 marathoner. Such great advice from everyone.

Steve - I nearly missed that subtle reference... Enjoy your new age category! Mine's also coming up in a few weeks' time... 

Yes it is a nice feeling to know the heaviest weeks are done Yasunaga, I'm not sure I'll know what to do with the time though, I'm so used to all my spare time being taken by running!

That went straight over my head re. Steve's age category. Belated happy birthday!

Good session of 10 x 800's today. Had my usual warm up of 1.75 miles and the took the first rep easy as Steve suggested, found myself feeling really good and the pace relaxed and pretty comfortable so pushed on for the rest of the reps.

It felt controlled and didn't feel like I was pushing very hard so really pleased with my rep times. Took the same 1.75 miles cool down to finish with 9.5 miles in total.

Rep splits -

1. 2.57
2. 2.46
3. 2.44
4. 2.47
5. 2.49
6. 2.44
7. 2.47
8. 2.47
9. 2.47
10. 2.49

Great last v long run A.W.   Belated happy birthday Steve - you'll be even more impressive in your new age category.

Rob - really understand where you're coming from - it's a problem I've struggled with in past winters.  I sleep really badly which makes it worse so been putting a lot more emphasis on diet, recovery drinks/food and looking after myself with massages etc and reduced stress and travel and that seems to have really made a difference.   

Did my HM in 85 mins in the wind and rain on Sat so pleased with that.   

Wow! Tremendous splits AW!! Your are truly in great form.

Nutterman, very good half in pretty dire conditions.

Nice splits AW - very consistent again which is the name of the game.

Great Half marathon time Nutterman.

Happy birthday Steve.

Great session AW - if you stay healthy and run sensibly between now and do the race with the same disclipline, sub-3 will be a very comfortable target.

Thanks for wishes. I seem to have aged ten years in one go and tonight's speed session was slowest ever 5 x 1 mile by some distance but pleased to do as legs were tired and hamstring tight and on 3 mile run to track almost thought all I would be doing was calling times out. Post session jog back was 11:30 miling and it didn't feel slow!

all the other runners who did 20 from group on Sunday, set PBs there despite running within themselves and all were going well tonight other than me.

One runner from group won European masters title in Spain at 3000m today.

Impressive running company Steve! We're all allowed some bad days

I did 10 miles at a relaxed pace (just under 8m/m) last night and feel like I have recovered well after the race effort on Sunday. Ready for the rest of the week's harder efforts.

Sports massage tonight so hoping to be nice and fresh for the final 2 weeks of hard work.

Good HM Nutterman. Things are ticking along nicely for you.

Nice 10 miler too Yasunaga.

Good results from your runners at Finchley Steve. Setting PB's while running within themselves is impressive stuff. And a European masters title too!

Fairly comfortable 9 miles today done. Got easier as the run went on and finished with an average pace of 7.15. Its getting close now and I can't wait to get to Paris, just hoping I can avoid all these people with bugs and colds between now and race day!!!

another good solid run for you today AW -

the hard training is pretty much done and now you just need to stay fit and healthy

I only did 5 at very slow pace today and did 90 mins on bike to make up for shortfall!