RW Forum Six - Sub 3:30

Minni v Dubai Dave

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06/12/2012 at 12:46

off to buy some fruit cider ....  I have a 10k on Sunday

06/12/2012 at 13:36

Just filled in the blanks on Jantastic and starting to plan my Spring races and this has thrown up a question...

I normally run the Tunbridge Wells half (hilly - good training) in Feb and then a few weeks later do the Paddock Wood half (dead flat - new pb potential), which normally happens just before the taper for VLM. However, this year PW half is on 7th April... Only two weeks before VLM.

Should i risk it, or is it too close for comfort???

06/12/2012 at 13:51

Oompa- I wouldn't race a half two weeks before VLM, I think it's a bit close. 

Lots of LSRs and recovery runs done with a hangover but haven't yet attempted racing on one. But hey- it's all carbs after all... DS2- very impressed with your exploits.

Sarah and DS2- when do you find out if you've been chosen?

06/12/2012 at 13:57
Simon Santa Claus wrote (see)

Bro/Gazelle - Where abouts are you skiing, or boarding? Hopefully you'll be too knackered to go running, cus you'll have 2foot of fresh powder every night. If you've got time for running, the snows crap!

Simon- I will be trying not to break any ribs in Whistler. I have never attempted running while on a skiing holiday but I will have to find a way.

06/12/2012 at 14:38

Simon- I'm skiing in Peisey France, hope to do a few days cross country as there are 158km of ski trails. I was thinking of running on the spot for 10 minutes each night to emulate a 1 mile run for Jantastic, would that be ok or cheating? I'm worried about this now!

DD- Good luck in your race tomorrow

Spoons. wrote (see)

Minni - tried your test. Weird.

I didn't run last night I got drunk instead It was cold, wet and snowing so I tucked up warm with the CNBA fairy and the OH A threesome perhaps?

Spoons- There no excuses not to run! Zip up your mansuit and get out there.

Minni- Good luck on getting home tonight, can you send the snow this way please.

Ant- Have you kept to the same schedule for your marathons? If so and your times are almost the same I would say yes for changing it. Although I love running marathons I find the long runs in training hard, more of a mental block, I like the idea of what you may try.

Chick- Hope your Mum is ok, did they find out why she collapsed in the first place?


06/12/2012 at 14:38

Oompa, A bit close? A hilly 20-25 miler I did last year is on the 7th too rather than 1st and thinking the same thing, last 20+ long run end of March 30th/31st.

and those pesky IM Tri people are just irritating, was running with one at the club and his time in the marathon section was sub 3:30. so unfair!

Ant, unlike Chic, I didn't do loads of marathon pace in my long runs. in fact hardly any apart from one event. Lots on 8-12 mile tempo runs, and often faster than PMP. Different strokes.. 5 x 20m also.. as per Jedi Master Shaggy instructions.



06/12/2012 at 14:58

Chick, Gazelle & FRC - re PMP and schedules. I have done different schedules each year, so I'm always trying something new. I have taken 10+ mins off each time, so I suppose something is working. I plan on doing more speed work this time and on top of the PMP will also do LT and interval work.

I plan my own schedule  and the thing about the 20 milers is that that they really dominate your schedule if you put 5 of them in and you can't fit as much PMP in there  if you want to stay on the conservative side of avoiding injury anyway.

Currently it includes 3 20 milers - with one of them a 20 mile race including 10+ miles of PMP. In addition I am including a load of slightly shorter LRs including segments of PMP building up to that 10 mile PMP and back down again. My understanding is that it is total weekly mileage not the number of 20 milers that give you the best endurance training - well, we'll see! 

Oompa - agree with the others, I would not do a HM so close to the marathon. I won't even do a 20 in the last month this time round...

06/12/2012 at 15:16

Ant - its both but don''t underestimate the value of the 20 milers.  I think its not until you have a very, very good endurance base that you can then look at doing fewer 20 miles, but even then perhaps just for one training period.   When not marathon training my long run each week is 16 miles and this has really improved my endurance base.

Look at the splits of your last marathons.  If you keep an even pace throughout then that would show your endurance is quite good, if however, you start to slow in the last 6 then you need to continue with those 20 milers I'm afraid.  

My schedule also changes with each marathon - its the only way to improve.

06/12/2012 at 15:32

Minni - I think one of the problems with doing 5 20 milers is the opportunity cost: because you do them, there are other things you can't do. I want to try something different. I know that the number of 20 milers is meant to improve endurance, but there are examples even on this thread where banging out the 20 milers doesn't mean you won't fade at the end. Its all about having endurance at your planned pace. FTR - my splits were pretty much even last time round.

But we're all an experiment of 1 in the end!


06/12/2012 at 15:37

Bro & FRC - Thanks... Sort of confirmed what i was thinking.

Minni & Ant - What's PMP?

I've bitten the bullet this year as the OH is getting me the P&D book, so i'm planning to follow one of their schedules but as i keep hearing that they do not have many LSR's in the programme, i'll do 5 x 20+ miles.

06/12/2012 at 15:42

Ant - Sorry, x-post. I managed a completely uninjured programme last Spring and did 5 x 20 - 22 mile runs and ran a negative split marathon. Admittedly part of this was down to being chronically held up in the first 8 miles or so, but i still had plenty left at the end and feel i could have got close to a GFA sub-3.15 time, so i really think that as Minni says, the 20+ runs are invaluable for endurance. 

06/12/2012 at 15:54

Oompa - sorry, jargontastic: PMP = planned marathon pace. 

And as Oompa says, P&D don't agree with the 5 x 20m Anyway its not as if I am planning on not doing plenty of long runs, provisionally I have 3 x 20m in there, along with 6 x 16m incorporating PMP.

We'll see if the approach works in April

Dubai Dave    pirate
06/12/2012 at 15:55

Ant its great that you have realised that there is no "correct" way of training for a marathon, I like 5 x 20+ runs with at least the last 6 miles at MP if the marathon is important to me but if its a B marathon 3 x 20 or less will do. When I did the 3 in 3 days i only ran 2 x 20 milers in training but did come of the back of IM training. Endurance can undoubtedly built from training other than running, swimming has to be the hardest workout of all. The proff will be in the pudding

Minni: Talking of swimming you seem to have stopped!

Racing tomorrow but not 100%, sore throat, slightly ruuny nose. No where near sick enough to stop me running but probably sick enough fro me not to give it full welly, lets see how I feel at 0400 Argh.......

06/12/2012 at 16:21
Santa Baby chickadeee wrote (see)

AntP: MP is all important. Try and get as much in as you can. I'm sure it helped me to crack 3:30 much more than speedwork or tempo runs.

MP is important, preferably towards the end of your long runs. But don't underestimate the importance of slower running. You need slow running to build the aerobic engine.

Also - never do long runs in a rested state. Ideally you would race a park run on the Saturday and do the long run on the Sunday on tired legs. Do the long run really slowly and then do the last 5 miles or so at MP.

06/12/2012 at 17:09
Spoons. wrote (see)
Santa Baby chickadeee wrote (see)
Also - never do long runs in a rested state. Ideally you would race a park run on the Saturday and do the long run on the Sunday on tired legs. Do the long run really slowly and then do the last 5 miles or so at MP.

Spoons- really?  I always do them in a rested state, unless I'm hangover.

06/12/2012 at 17:34

Dancing on tables until 4am doesn't count Brolish

I'm off to do 2 x 20 minutes of Kenyan hills with 2 minutes recovery. If I don't come back it's because I died....

06/12/2012 at 18:03
Ant - why do so many 16s? I'm sure I read that there are a lot of changes in what the body uses as fuel when you go over 16, which is why the 20s are important to the final marathon time. You're training you're body to go the distance. I like the idea of your MPM in your 16s.

DD - the swimming has gone back in the back burner! It's down to lack of time more than anything else. It's still something I'd like to do.
06/12/2012 at 20:49

Thanks for the congrats. Carrot, no date planned. Trying to figure out how to do the marriage bit in the lowest stress way possible (short of going to vegas).

Just done my civic duty and voted for Sarah and D2D. There are so many new threads now I found it hard to find this one.

Brrrrr, it was cold out there on my bike this evening. Icy rain drops by the end. Cross training doesn't seem to be a problem, although I haven't tried anything like elliptical trainers which is more similar to running and I've had problems on longer walks.

Chick, glad your mum is okay.

Hmmm, I think my OH is the CNBA fairy, he's always telling me to rest more and that I'm doing too much, so I'm quite concerned about Spoons threesome now...

06/12/2012 at 21:05
Minni - I'm going for 5x 20m's, but none at MP, but plenty of PCTMP.
1x9mmp easy, 1x8.45mmp still ok, 2x 8.30 getting interesting, then last 1x PCTMP (pretty close to marathon pace) 8.15mmp ouch!
Now I've told you, I'm less likely to back off the pace, cus I know in 3mnths time you'll be asking me,when am I doing me 8.15 20miler he he!
06/12/2012 at 21:08
Haha I'll be in your case Simon! Now we need to factor red wine and hangovers in to that too.....
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