RW Forum Six - Sub 3:30

Minni v Dubai Dave

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06/12/2012 at 15:32

Minni - I think one of the problems with doing 5 20 milers is the opportunity cost: because you do them, there are other things you can't do. I want to try something different. I know that the number of 20 milers is meant to improve endurance, but there are examples even on this thread where banging out the 20 milers doesn't mean you won't fade at the end. Its all about having endurance at your planned pace. FTR - my splits were pretty much even last time round.

But we're all an experiment of 1 in the end!


06/12/2012 at 15:37

Bro & FRC - Thanks... Sort of confirmed what i was thinking.

Minni & Ant - What's PMP?

I've bitten the bullet this year as the OH is getting me the P&D book, so i'm planning to follow one of their schedules but as i keep hearing that they do not have many LSR's in the programme, i'll do 5 x 20+ miles.

06/12/2012 at 15:42

Ant - Sorry, x-post. I managed a completely uninjured programme last Spring and did 5 x 20 - 22 mile runs and ran a negative split marathon. Admittedly part of this was down to being chronically held up in the first 8 miles or so, but i still had plenty left at the end and feel i could have got close to a GFA sub-3.15 time, so i really think that as Minni says, the 20+ runs are invaluable for endurance. 

06/12/2012 at 15:54

Oompa - sorry, jargontastic: PMP = planned marathon pace. 

And as Oompa says, P&D don't agree with the 5 x 20m Anyway its not as if I am planning on not doing plenty of long runs, provisionally I have 3 x 20m in there, along with 6 x 16m incorporating PMP.

We'll see if the approach works in April

Dubai Dave    pirate
06/12/2012 at 15:55

Ant its great that you have realised that there is no "correct" way of training for a marathon, I like 5 x 20+ runs with at least the last 6 miles at MP if the marathon is important to me but if its a B marathon 3 x 20 or less will do. When I did the 3 in 3 days i only ran 2 x 20 milers in training but did come of the back of IM training. Endurance can undoubtedly built from training other than running, swimming has to be the hardest workout of all. The proff will be in the pudding

Minni: Talking of swimming you seem to have stopped!

Racing tomorrow but not 100%, sore throat, slightly ruuny nose. No where near sick enough to stop me running but probably sick enough fro me not to give it full welly, lets see how I feel at 0400 Argh.......

06/12/2012 at 16:21
Santa Baby chickadeee wrote (see)

AntP: MP is all important. Try and get as much in as you can. I'm sure it helped me to crack 3:30 much more than speedwork or tempo runs.

MP is important, preferably towards the end of your long runs. But don't underestimate the importance of slower running. You need slow running to build the aerobic engine.

Also - never do long runs in a rested state. Ideally you would race a park run on the Saturday and do the long run on the Sunday on tired legs. Do the long run really slowly and then do the last 5 miles or so at MP.

06/12/2012 at 17:09
Spoons. wrote (see)
Santa Baby chickadeee wrote (see)
Also - never do long runs in a rested state. Ideally you would race a park run on the Saturday and do the long run on the Sunday on tired legs. Do the long run really slowly and then do the last 5 miles or so at MP.

Spoons- really?  I always do them in a rested state, unless I'm hangover.

06/12/2012 at 17:34

Dancing on tables until 4am doesn't count Brolish

I'm off to do 2 x 20 minutes of Kenyan hills with 2 minutes recovery. If I don't come back it's because I died....

06/12/2012 at 18:03
Ant - why do so many 16s? I'm sure I read that there are a lot of changes in what the body uses as fuel when you go over 16, which is why the 20s are important to the final marathon time. You're training you're body to go the distance. I like the idea of your MPM in your 16s.

DD - the swimming has gone back in the back burner! It's down to lack of time more than anything else. It's still something I'd like to do.
06/12/2012 at 20:49

Thanks for the congrats. Carrot, no date planned. Trying to figure out how to do the marriage bit in the lowest stress way possible (short of going to vegas).

Just done my civic duty and voted for Sarah and D2D. There are so many new threads now I found it hard to find this one.

Brrrrr, it was cold out there on my bike this evening. Icy rain drops by the end. Cross training doesn't seem to be a problem, although I haven't tried anything like elliptical trainers which is more similar to running and I've had problems on longer walks.

Chick, glad your mum is okay.

Hmmm, I think my OH is the CNBA fairy, he's always telling me to rest more and that I'm doing too much, so I'm quite concerned about Spoons threesome now...

06/12/2012 at 21:05
Minni - I'm going for 5x 20m's, but none at MP, but plenty of PCTMP.
1x9mmp easy, 1x8.45mmp still ok, 2x 8.30 getting interesting, then last 1x PCTMP (pretty close to marathon pace) 8.15mmp ouch!
Now I've told you, I'm less likely to back off the pace, cus I know in 3mnths time you'll be asking me,when am I doing me 8.15 20miler he he!
06/12/2012 at 21:08
Haha I'll be in your case Simon! Now we need to factor red wine and hangovers in to that too.....
06/12/2012 at 21:13
SBC, what's a matter with your mum, I hope she is ok?
I hope the cider works as well for you as it did for me, and if not least it's a nice drink!

HHH i agree with the others, prob not best to race a half two weeks before a marathon (although I was daft enough to think about doing Paris, if I get through, then VLM two weeks later....more I think about it, the more I think it will destroy me)

Brolish we hopefully get to find out next Thursday. Katie said that they have to get all the votes in (which now closes mid day next Wednesday) and then decide between them whose going through. I'm so nervous already, I only managed 4 hours sleep last night....the anticipation of this week may destroy me!

Gazelle, Brolish, I would love to go on a skiing holiday but I'm so scared of breaking something and not being able to run. I really do think I would be a nightmare to live with if I didn't get out to run.

Just wondering what do you all think about a 22 mile training run..too much?

Spoons, that was my next question. Normally I rest the day before a long run but I did my first track session with knavesmires (although it ended up being on the grass at the side of the track due to ice) tonight, do you reckon I can still do my long run tomorrow?
06/12/2012 at 22:16

SO4 - don't bother with 22, 30 miles of mud will do you much more good

Also got my votes in today and have had a nice lazy evening before seeing the Doc tomorrow.  BA actually confessed to being worried about me [in fairness he worries about me all the time but only about what I might do next] and wouldn't let me cycle to work in the sub-zero temperatures.  This meant I had to run!!  In the end I compromised and took the car to within a couple of miles of the office where I could park free of charge.  They don't call me Scrooge for nothing...............

Spoons - tell the CNBA fiary to budge up and we can make it a foursome

06/12/2012 at 22:33

SO4 - do the long run and run it nice and slowly (speed of chat)

40 minutes of hills tonight

06/12/2012 at 23:24
Haha, I do like to get muddy!

Thanks Spoons....that's sorted my plans out for tomorrow now. Think I would be lost without my Friday long run, just hoping the weathers not to bad!

I enjoy hills......after I've finished!
07/12/2012 at 09:09
Car broke down last night and have had to get it sorted this morning. It's sleet wind and rain outside and the CNBA fairy has moved in. Not sure if my long run is gonna happen.
07/12/2012 at 09:17

Morning all,

Sarah - I think 22 miles is a good idea, as it gets you close to the time you'll actually be spending on your feet in a marathon. I'm a long run fan - for my last one I did 2 x 20, 2 x 21, 1 x 22 and 1 x 23.  But I limited my chances by not putting any PMP into those runs - in fact not really any PCTMP either. I'll be focusing more on that this time around, which I should be able to do as I have three 20 mile races in my build up and I always find it easier to run a little quicker in a race. I still intend to do my last LSR as a 3.15 "time on feet" run, which should work out as about 23 miles. I'm also planning on putting 20 miles into my schedule earlier, so that I can alternate with shorter LSRs, so do 20/15/20/15 etc. I think that way I can make sure I have plenty of recovery. We'll see how successful that is!

My run yesterday was a bit shortened as I ran out of time - got 5 miles in though which is enough. I'm working at home today and should be able to do a few more than that. I'm doing by long run tomorrow morning (16 or 17 depending on whether I decide to take a little detour). Then I'm off to visit Cheerful Dave and other family for a pre-Christmas get together for the rest of the weekend. I'm planning on running the route of the Epsom 10 on Sunday morning - undulating route over Epsom Downs.

Cheerful Dave    pirate
07/12/2012 at 09:32

It's not a 'pre-Christmas get together', it's a training camp

I was thinking of something close to that route on Sunday too.  Might be an early start though.

07/12/2012 at 09:40

CD - I hope CD junior is running Parkrun tomorrow to try and reclaim his title of "2nd fastest Parkrunner in the family"?

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