RW Forum Six - Sub 3:30

Minni v Dubai Dave

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07/01/2013 at 22:02

Back from Ireland, lots of difficult stuff going on over there so may not be as regular posting for a while.  Tempo run tonight, fast, hilly and felt great.  My New Year's day race has been upgraded to 1st Place FV55 - the person 15 seconds ahead of me was running on someone else's number and was actually about 12 .  Received wine and large vat of jelly babies collected for me by a clubmate.

Back to work and some semblance of normality tomorrow.  Sounds like I am the only person who didn't drink any more [and possibly less] than usual during December.  I also lost weight over Christmas / New year

07/01/2013 at 22:37

I haven't ever read anything that suggests not re-fuelling after a run is helpful. I get the arguments about doing a few training sessions on empty, but even people who advocate this approach tend not to recommend it for all of them. There have been some good Marathon Talk interviews on this. Was it Ryan Hall who was told to radically overhaul his diet and eat more?

07/01/2013 at 23:37
Ant - unfortunately no it's the other foot, which is a bit of a pain, as I thought I'd seen the last of PF. Yes I had the head torch as a chrimbo prezzie.

Red - The 410 is supposed to have solved the wet weather bezel probs of the 405. I think they will only offer you a different model, if your original model is obsolete.

2old - No I haven't entered Maddog yet, but as it's only 10k, I probably will. Have you thought of Wilmslow Half on 24th Mar.

Well done on all the Jantastic runs logged.
07/01/2013 at 23:42
Minni- I think the fast all day and run approach is crazy but thereis a trend now to do long runs without fuelling before hand / carb loading and not using gels etc when doing them. The idea is to get the body used to relying on fat for energy when the bodys natural glycogen supply runs out. It's only worth doing this for runs over an hour and a half as the body's glycogen store will last until then approx. the idea is that during the marathon you then carboload before and use gels to support the enhanced fat burning energy provided in the last six miles. It has been suggested to try not eating in the evening before a morning LR and not in the morning to further enhance this. I've been trying to eat as little as possible before a LR - maybe a piece of bread nd jam and have reduced my use of gels and water or energy drinks. For example on my 21 miler on Sunday I had toast 3 hours before and one gel after 16 miles and drank no water or energy drinks at all. I'm planning to stick to this if possible for most of the rest. With luck I won't run out of steam in the last 3-4 miles of VLM as usual and will try to finish strongly . Whether I stick to it and it works we will see.
Great understated start to Jantastic
O4S- well done on your 1st place
Glyn- come on join Jantastic. You know you want to
MrZ-another recovery run- hoe it was less painful than mine
07/01/2013 at 23:45
Simon- only10k? What are you saying...not tough enough? I plan on doing 6 -7 before it all being well. Wilmslow! Brilliant ill get onto it tomorrow. Are you massaging your PF with a tennis ball?
08/01/2013 at 00:40

well just tried to register but doesn't seem to want to accept my user name / pword...

08/01/2013 at 06:57

Minni - IMHO - not fuelling before a run makes it harder, not fuelling after a run means you take longer to recover and are more likely to get injured. Best bet is to fuel the same as you would in race conditions (I.e.not much, just gels and water) so your body gets used to it. During LSRs you can get away with less because you're not working so hard. I would take a gel when doing MP in long runs just to get used to taking them when running at MP.

08/01/2013 at 08:18

Minni -  I will run some of my LSR's unfuelled but any with MP efforts in I will take gels.  Have previously done 23 miles unfuelled, to try and get the body used to burning fat as a source of energy.  I always refuel straight after run usually chocolate milk.

4 miles slow into work last night.  Just over 9 back home this morning, 1.5 WU then 3 x 2miles with 3 min recovery then 1 mile WD, was worried they were n't going to go well as legs felt a bit stiff during warm up but it's amazing when that beep goes on the Garmin.  6:46, 6:41 and 6:43 avg for the repeats so happy with that after my slowish Parkruns over xmas.  Right I'm off to bed.

08/01/2013 at 08:36

I've read a bit about the not fuelling prior to LSR's too. There may be something to it, but I'm not prepared to risk it to be honest. I'd rather have exactly the same breakfast as I'll have on race day, and then try and do the same with hydration throughout. I'd be worried the possible downside (a key 20M+ run blowing up early) is more risky than the potential benefits gained. As for post-run refuelling, chocolate milk for me too.

Simon / Chick, thanks for all of the info. The wet bezel bit doesn't bother me as I always have it running through the screens anyway, so never touch it whilst I'm out. Shall get it ordered now...

5M for me this morning, but was a bit naughty and pushed it a bit, finishing with 2 x 8.05 but it felt ok (Glyn, I told you I'd struggle to practice what I preach!) 

08/01/2013 at 09:21
Bro we could end up pacing each other! Good for holding back in the easy early miles, keeping focussed during the middle miles and digging deep and pushing each other on in the final miles

Weeble - I'll probably do 5 or 6 x 20miles or above, plus shorter runs with some MP miles.

Hope you're aching a bit less today Spoons? I like having sore abs! A little reminder of a hard session every time you laugh / sneeze / drive around a roundabout!

Redwood that's great if you're back up to 8 miles pain free, I'm sure you can sound that week up to 26

Daren don't despair, rest is hard but you will come back stronger and faster, rest worked for Parsnip who is back to his usual speedy self after four months off last year.

O4S enjoy the wine and jelly babies! Shame you didn't get them on the day.

Minni - depends on the run as to what fuel I'd go for before and after. Shorter runs I just fit in when I can so don't pay much attention to eating before or after. My long run is usually done on a day off work so I'll do it on a morning after a bagel. Try to have some pasta for tea the night before too. I don't see the logic of not refueling for hours afterwards though, surely that's the most important time to get some kind of recovery drink and some food into you?

Good paces for your 2 mile reps Barry, that little countdown beep on the garmin is the best!

Jantastic day one for me was a rest day, track session tonight.
08/01/2013 at 09:24

I agree with Redwood. I think underfuelling/ running on empty is a bit risky.  If I had a nutritionist at my disposal (like I imagine the elites do) who would ensure it's done correctly maybe I would give it a go. As it is, I would be worried that my training would suffer. I think it's something that's easy to get wrong. Is there actually a solid evidence that you can get your body used to burning more fat by running on empty? I'm not saying there isn't but would be interested to read up on it in more detail. To be honest I just don't like being hungry. Running 20m is hard as it is, I don't fancy starving myself to make it even harder.

13m done before work and I'm on my second breakfast. So much for underfuelling!

My foot is a bit buggered. I think I bruised the ball of my left foot by running more in my trail shoes recently which don't have much cushioning. It's not excruciating but slightly annoying and doesn't want to go away. Hopefully TM running will mean a bit less impact and it sorts itself out.

08/01/2013 at 09:26

O4S- congrats on the 1st place!!!

Carrot- xpost. Sounds like a plan.

08/01/2013 at 10:28

Carrot: I could have got them on the day [the other lady fessed up as soon as she realised what had happened] but I was en route to Ireland straight after the run.  The results on the website were done by some computer geek who didn't bother to change the category.

Re fuelling on any run - I only ever have one slice of toast before a run of any length and no gels en route.  Only drink water in a race, not on training runs, because I can't be bothered to carry it round.  When I was doing my PBs gels didn't exist and I can't remember any races having energy drinks - or in fact anyone carrying one round.  Since my PBs [admittedly 20 odd years ago] are comparable to many on this thread I can't believe it makes that much difference except as a mental crutch.

Alternatively I could have been Paula Radcliffe.................

08/01/2013 at 10:30


Minni wrote (see)


There's been a bit of talk on the Asics threads and others about fuelling, or rather not fuelling for long runs.  I'm a great believer of you only get out what you put in and when marathon training make sure I get either a recovery drink or milk and food down my neck as soon as I finish a harder session.  There's all kind of talk going on about running in the evening after not eating since breakfast and not eating for 2 hours after runs the then only proteins. 

Can anyone elaborate on this?  I'd be worried that my muscles weren't getting what they need to recover.

Not fuelling after runs sounds like a very silly concept to me - wouldn't recommend it. In fact, I'm doing my best this campaign to improve on post run fuelling because I'm crap at it. I have a new found love for banana shakes - 1 banana, bit of milk, bit of vanilla yoghurt, bit of vanilla sugar - into the blender and YUM. Takes about 2 mins to put it together and it's all natural . Don't much like the chemical recovery drinks that are on the market.

BarryB: those were great 2mile reps. Well done!

Simon: interesting about the wet bezel thing. It never bothered me - I have one training screen that shows me the data I want to see. I can understand how it would drive people nuts though if they relied on the different screens.

O4S: sorry to hear you are having a hard time at the mo. Well done on being "upgraded" to 1st V55

1st Jantastic run logged for me . Fell off the wagon last night  But after an 11 hour workday all I was craving was a pizza and a bit of red.


08/01/2013 at 10:33

On Sunday I got out of bed at 8:40, had a bowl of readybrek and 2 mugs of coffee and was on the road for my 18m by 9am.    is this bad?

This is what I was referring to re not eating after a run:

RUTH MCKEAN wrote (see)

There is many ways to deplete in carbs for example not eating for two hours post hard run (not even protein) or long run then little carbs for rest of day then traing next day low but this is not the only way.

08/01/2013 at 10:35

Like Brol I'd be interested to know the evidence behind it.


Mr Zuvai    pirate
08/01/2013 at 10:45

hmmm  - she's very experienced so im loath to dissagree but im not sure im comfortable with that idea

my personal view is very similar to most here - i dont really fuel during my training runs - im very comfortable about what gels work well with me in a race environment so will only take gels in my last LSR to remind myself what it feels like and response time but all other runs i dont fuel during as i want my body to become more efficient at processing fat. As for not during post run seems just daft!! - plain milk for me but with an egg included and whisked up

Anyway - well done on jantastic team - a solid start to our defence!  

day 8 on the wagon - not struggling too much but could certainly kill a guiness

08/01/2013 at 10:51

O4S- I'm sure you can do without and many people do. But for me there is no denying that gels give you a boost and it's not just psychological, I can very much feel when they kick in. Sometimes I take them during LSR and don't even think about it and only remember I had one when I notice that my pace picks up 10-15min later. If it's necessary to use them in training is debatable but during a race I will use all the help I can get!

On another hand Ady mentioned on his thread that Lance Armstrong apparently used 16 gels during the NY marathon . Is it even humanly possible?

08/01/2013 at 10:56

16 gels !!! 

I never use them, apart from the marathon. I think they are revolting but in the actual race I wouldn't dare to leave them at home. What if I hit the wall . Nah, I rather carry a few packs of sickly-sweet gunk around and tuck in every 5 miles or so. They also help to break up the race I find ...

08/01/2013 at 10:57

Minni- to be fair Ruth was answering a specific question about under fuelling and explained various ways to do it. She did say however that she wouldn't recommend it to someone not experienced.

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