RW Forum Six - Sub 3:30

Mr Spoons wrote (see)

Great stuff Minni. 2 miles of knee deep water doesn't sound like fun. It might have been easier to swim it.

 You had a similar run yourself?

BecsA -  great to see you back.  A spell off for illness gives your muscles a chance to recover and repair so they will be fresh when you start again (that's what I always tell myself!). I'm sure you'll be back in sooner than you think if you keep building it up slowly.   Which half and marathon are you looking at? And what is your half pb?

Kiwi - I'm no fell runner!  I pretend to be sometimes but I find it really hard.  I always finish further up the field in road races than fell. Well done on your xcountry, especially after yesterday. 

What does the week have in store?  For me, its a slightly easier one on the P&D, which is good for the half on Sunday.   DD has a marathon on Friday.  

Morning All

BecsA: Four weeks out is quite a longtime as it is reckoned that you start to lose fitness after 96 hours on inactivity so don't expect too much too soon, however on the other hand you will probably get back to where you were quicker than you expect. A couple of years ago I was out for 4 weeks with pneumonia and ran  a marathon PB 7 weeks after resuming running, so all is not lost!

Minni: Fell runner or not I think you did better than I would have done over that sort of terrain, its the downhills that get me in fell races, the whippets fly by me as they throw them selves down the hillside. I'm never happier than when a race has more up than down. Enjoy your rest day!

Minni wrote (see)

BecsA -  great to see you back.  A spell off for illness gives your muscles a chance to recover and repair so they will be fresh when you start again (that's what I always tell myself!). I'm sure you'll be back in sooner than you think if you keep building it up slowly.   Which half and marathon are you looking at? And what is your half pb?

I'm just quite glad to be running again, even if it takes a while to build it back up. I was looking enviously at people out running when I was out of action. It's made me appreciate it more.

I entered Reading half, but I've not thought about the marathon yet as I wanted to use the half to get up to a good level of fitness before starting a marathon campaign. My half PB is 1:48 - I'm slower than you and trying to get a 3:45 marathon but learning lots from your journey. Which half are you running on Sunday (sorry if you've said already and I've missed it) and what are you aiming for?

BecsA, I did my first marathon in 3.43 and my half pb then was 1.48.   I'm doing the Brass Monkey in York.  I haven't thought about a target time yet (I'll do that in the car on the way down!).  I ran 1.40 in October and I'm hoping to knock some time off that but we'll see.

I did a 2.5 mile recovery run today before my monthly massage...  I wanted to see if everything was still in working order after yesterday.   All seems ok.   A couple of weeks ago I did that 14 on the coast, adding another two onto the end and felt fine the next day.  But finishing the 12 yesterday I couldn't have added another two on and although my legs don't feel sore or tight,  they feel tired today. 

There is a interesting debate over on the other 3-30 thread with regard to how many quality sessions you should have in one week, as Steve the Marathon coach states and as I have already mentioned the RW schedules, P & D schedules and any others that you look at there is a speed session a tempo run, a LSR and a medium long run, its not rocket science.

The trouble with the 3-15 to 3-30 marathon is that its moving towards the serious runner end of the spectrum away from the fun runner end, its unlikely that anyone will achieve a sub 3-15 marathon without some fairly serious application unless their incredibly genetically talented. Therefore most sub 3-30 marathon runners are veterans of several attempts at the distance, it has to be unlikely that a first time marathon runner is going to have the experience or know how  to run these sort of times unless they are moving up from shorter distances. Such is the allure of the marathon that far too many runners think of it as the holy grail when they would be better suited to shorter distances. There is a lady who I train with whom is a phenominal sprinter but is insistent that she wants to run a marathon a distance to which she is clearly unsuited.

I often wonder how many runners actually have a reasonable idea of what time they are capable of in the marathon, too many times I hear I ran 3-50 last time so I must be able to run 3-30 next time, well not unless you put in  a lot of hard work you won't. I am a classsic example of this syndrome, first marathon 3-43 so of course I can go sub 3-30 at the second attempt, nope 3-33 and that stayed my best effort for the next 7 years as I ran a further 20 marathons all in the 3-35 - 3-50 bracket, it was only then that I took a long hard look at my running and realised that whilst miles make champions, champions also need speed work. 

Anyway enough of my rant, how has everyones day been? Wasn't it VO2 max session today Minni? I was out on my bike in the dark of the pre dawn and the pouring rain, that must be the first time in 12 years I have cycled in the rain!

DD - I agree with you completely. I managed a 90min HM fairly quickly in my running career off 3 runs a week and with my other times (sub 20min 5k and sub 40min 10k and 64min 10 mile) I thought doing my first marathon would be a breeze. I woefully undertrained (no 20 milers) and grovelled round to a 3h30min off a 1h37/1h53min split. I managed to get to 3h19 on my 3rd marathon with only a 4min positive split but it took another 2 marathons before I managed to crack 3h15 with 3h12.

As for the debate on t'other thread.  I'm with you Dave, after running my first marathon at 3.43 I thought I'd just get faster and faster but it ain't happened.  So, as you've said, one must take a good hard look at what can be changed.  Time will tell if the P&D is any better than RW, for me anyway.  What would you say was the main thing you changed in order to get under 3.30? 

I would like to see this issue debated on its own thread rather than Krypton's.  My take on it is she has 'won' this opportunity and part of the package is following the RW schedule, so regardless of who thinks what, that is the job to be done.  

Minni: Sorry for giving you a heart attack, I agree that I don't think the issue of schedules etc should not be debated on Kryptonites thread, its actually far more relevant here where we have you a experienced runner chasing a goal. What did I do to break that 3-30 barrier? Simple tempo runs of 8 miles or so at 1/2M pace, Intervals and run the last 6 miles of my long runs at MP or quicker, but perhaps the biggest single influence was the arrival in my club of two runners of equal age and ability to me, we have simply driven each other on to places we didn't know we could go.

MM: It takes time to learn to run a pace consistently for more than 3 hours, I have run slightly negative splits in every race over all distances for the past two years, these are not huge negative splits because I held back in the first half but tiny negative splits created by a abililty to a) know what pace I can run for a distance based on my training b) an ability to throw caution to the wind in the last mile! This only comes with experience.

I think the arrival of the two runners at your club probably had most to do with it.  Its hard to push yourself whereas running with other equal or faster runners makes a big difference.  I think I'm going to do some of my 20 milers with runners from another club for that reason.  They have a group who go out at aim for closer to 8m/m than 9.  Haven't actually asked them yet but I don't think they'll say no!

I don't think I'll ever have the confidence to run a negative split.  I tend to go on the assumption of I'm going to get tired anyway so try and bank some faster miles early on.....  Yes, I know what you're going to say...

agree that its unfortunate for Krypto.......but I suppose with an open forum these things are part of it and comes with the prize........

not sure why it is on her forum...maybe because its she was struggling with the pace the first few weeks........

It seems to me that that it might have easily been on the upsy daisy one as she has never ever run a marathon and has just started running after a year or so break and they have her going for sub 3:15 ...........

the debate is trying to build up mileage and speed at the same time might be more relevant there..as thats a very fast time to go for your first marathon especially for a female.......

I really like reading all the different debates on training though...even though I have nothing to add

Oh yes, I'm with you there seren. Great to read about... so long as its not my paces they're debating over

You're going great guns.  You must be really pleased with your training so far.  Did you get your back sorted? 

Minni / MM: Trust me you need to learn to run even or negative splits, the stomp it and hang on simply does not work.

Having said all of that I'm going to run Dubai marathon on Friday on the back of very little running ( 30 MPW or a year) but a lot of cross training, I will go out at a pace I hope to maintain but I have a horrible suspicion that my lack of endurance may bite me in the arse, though I did manage negative splits in Athens in October off this training but then I didn't actually go out all that hard. Watch this space!

Yeah, Mr Spoons... how can something negative be postive

kiwirunner10 wrote (see)

 i tend to be very sensible + evenly pace it throughout, holding to goal pace while everyone else charges off at the start, but not really speeding up much at all in the second half.

 General aerobic , 8.34 for me tonight at an average of 8.50.  I started off steady with something pulling in the back of my knee (a fell runners injury I suppose...), but it loosened off and managed couple of miles at 7.43 and 7.47. 

MM: If you think your better at 1/2M's go for it, I should too as I'm clearly best in the 10K to 1/2M bracket, all of the race time predictors say that I should be able to run a 3 -12 to 3-17 marathon based on times for 10 miles / 1/2M funny how I never get close!

Minni: The arrival of the two club mates is the classic chicken and the egg story. The truth  is that without the MP runs, the tempo work, the intervals your not going to improve, club mates just inspire your to work even harder. 

On your run last night did you find those two quicker miles comfortable or was it a effort to get up there?

Minni: Your absolutely right not too make a  easier week any harder, looking at the schedule there is nothing much between now and your race which will be a good indicator of where you are.  is the race on a flat course? 

I see that next week has a LT run so it will be interesting to see if you can manage the 6 miles at LT at the same pace as your 1/2M because the two (LT  PAce and 1/2M pace) should be about the same though to be fair I run my LT runs a little slower than 1/2M pace. My last 1/2M was run at close to 7 min/mile and my LT runs tend to be at about 7-10 or 7-15 min/mile.