RW Forum Six - Sub 3:30

Minni v Dubai Dave

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Dubai Dave    pirate
24/01/2011 at 17:02

So Minni in essence were all telling you more speedwork. BB has found sucess using pretty well the same method I used to transform my self from a 3-45 plodder to more speedy 3-24 marathon runner. You are clearly capable of running at 7-15 min/miles so do some of your training at those paces, endurance only gets you so far. Does your club have a speedwork session? If they don't you want to push for one, you don't have to have a track.

24/01/2011 at 17:50
My schedule is based aroud the First plan, with an interval session, a threshold run, but more long slow runs than that plan suggests. I have hit 3:29 on it. This time round though I am adding a recovery run (When possible) and i want to incorporate my threshold run in a 10 mile mid week
24/01/2011 at 22:37
You're not too old. You're exactly the same age as me.

Sorry I didn't catch you yesterday. Onwards and upwards. Put it down to experience I guess.
25/01/2011 at 07:32

All is explained for me as I feel rubbish. Shivering, aching muscles and no energy at all.

What is annoying is how often this seems to happen whenever I have an easy week or when I taper.

25/01/2011 at 08:48

Minni – Sorry, my last reply xposted with your last.

I’m glad you agree that you need a bit more speed work in your schedule.

I have been looking over my schedule for last year especially my successful 3:30 campaign and another run that I did once a fortnight that I found beneficial was the Yasso 800. I tried running 800m in less than 3 minutes 30 secs ten times with 400 m jog in between. Yasso claims that whatever time in minutes and seconds you can run 10 x 800m equates to your marathon time in hours and minutes. I don’t totally agree with this but do believe it’s a great workout for any distance from 10k to marathon training.

So for a sub 3:30 attempt you should be trying run each interval in 7:00 minute mile pace or even slightly quicker. I say slightly quicker because I found that I was able to do 10 x ½ mile intervals all in under 3:20 minutes and then ran a 3:28 marathon. Although, in saying that I do have better speed than endurance.

Dubai Dave    pirate
25/01/2011 at 09:02
BB: Yassos are in essence a 800M at 5K pace, to my mind the recovery is too long on them your better off doing say 10 x 800 at 5K pace off 2 minute or less recoveries (if I'm fit I can do this off 1 minute recoveries quite happily) . I normally run 800's in about 3mins 10 secs or less but I can't run a 3 -10 marathon! 
25/01/2011 at 10:05

DD – Thanks, and I agree with you totally. I forgot about Yasso’s recovery times as I have always taken around 2 minutes between intervals. Similar to you, I’m now in training for a sub 3:10 attempt and can do the intervals in sub 3 minutes but couldn’t get close to a sub 3 marathon.

I do think 800m in 3:30 x 10 with 2 minutes jog is a good workout for Minni considering her current speed and fitness level. She should be able to run then faster as the weeks go on.

Edited: 25/01/2011 at 10:07
Dubai Dave    pirate
25/01/2011 at 11:25
BB: Quite agree that 10 x 800 at 3-30's would be perfect for Minni, would mean breaking the P & D schedule though and I'm not sure she wants to do that.
25/01/2011 at 12:25
I like mile reps at 5km pace myself. I usually manage 5 with 2 minutes recovery.
25/01/2011 at 12:54
I'm not against breaking the p&d in favour of putting in yassos. Where would I fit them in? Would it mean changing a whole session or incorporating them into an existing one?
25/01/2011 at 13:10

IMO you can't just stick in an interval workout like 10 * 800m without it being part of some sort of progression where it fits in sensibly with what has been before and with what is coming up.

A couple of other things with regards to a VO2 max session (if that, indeed is the goal):

1)  For a runner of your ability doing these intervals at 5k pace is much too slow for vo2 max training.

2)  5m is way too stressful a total volume for VO2 max training if done at your correct vo2 max pace.

It's going to take a bit of thought to incorporate vo2 max training into your schedule.  It's also not something that you should plan to do solely in an attempt to address cramp issues - you'd better have a better reason!

Edited: 25/01/2011 at 13:11
25/01/2011 at 13:28
I have been doing 800 intervals, and am up to 5 reps, a gradual progression over the last few weeks, been doing them 10 seconds faster than my 5k pace per mile, is that fast enough?
Dubai Dave    pirate
25/01/2011 at 14:52

There are VO2 max sessions & LT runs in the P & D schedule I just need to find where I have put my copy again. I agree with Moraghan to a certain point in that you can't just parachute a 10 x 800 into a schedule it has to be built up to and indeed perhaps passed. But at the same time we don't want to make this too complicated, the whole thing you need to be getting used to is running at and  indeed faster than your race paces. 

I doubt if many runners actually understand the terms VO2 and LT fully, I wouldn't begin to think that I do its simply not in my areas of expertise (however if you want to know about ships I'm pretty good) though I get the idea. Speed work does many things but in my opinion the benefits which are oftern overlooked are that it gives the runner confidence that they are able to run at paces far faster than their general aerobic pace, and that it teaches the runner to know what different paces feel like and hit them without reference. Running at race pace for extended periods can be further developed by tempo runs or as I prefer by running lots of shorter races though not necessarily flat out.  Marathon training is not rocket science, LSR, Tempo, Intervals Medium LR, two recoveries, rest day pretty well covers any schedule, the variances are how you do those tempo / speed sessions.

IMO too many people get hung up on the technocalities of the sport, if you want to run fast you have to train fast some of the time. How you do that could be the subject of many a book but as long as there is progression in so far as you do more reps or do them faster or reduce the recovery period you are progressing rather than stagnating.

In short there are many ways to crack a nut.

25/01/2011 at 14:57
25/01/2011 at 15:40
I am following this but only have my iPhone today - not great for responding in detail. I will digest and post later......
25/01/2011 at 21:15

Feeling unwell......  I thought on Sunday afternoon I had a bad case of 'runners tum', took yesterday off work and felt better today.  Went out for my run tonight, got 2 miles in and had to come home feeling really sick.  My daughter has it too

Right down to business....

Moraghan wrote (see)

IMO you can't just stick in an interval workout like 10 * 800m without it being part of some sort of progression where it fits in sensibly with what has been before and with what is coming up.

A couple of other things with regards to a VO2 max session (if that, indeed is the goal):

1)  For a runner of your ability doing these intervals at 5k pace is much too slow for vo2 max training.

2)  5m is way too stressful a total volume for VO2 max training if done at your correct vo2 max pace.

It's going to take a bit of thought to incorporate vo2 max training into your schedule.  It's also not something that you should plan to do solely in an attempt to address cramp issues - you'd better have a better reason!

DD / Moraghan  There are VO2 max sessions in my schedule, starting the middle of February and lasting for seven weeks (one session per week).  They start at 5 x 800m and change through 600m, 1000m and 1200m as the weeks progress. 

I have never raced a 5k so I wouldn't really know what it is.  My first three miles on Sunday were around 7.15 so maybe I could knock 15 seconds off that, or is that too slow? (just read back and that's actually around the pace Badbark suggested...) I do sometimes find when I glance at my garmin that I'm running at about 6.45 pace but that's probably on a slight downhill. 

 Our club doesn't do 'speed' sessions as such but we do do lots of hill reps!    I have an 800m (or just a smidgen under) piece of flattish road earmarked for that session, which can be extended onto another road to get right up to 1200m.  

25/01/2011 at 21:23
Get well soon Minni
25/01/2011 at 21:23
Following P&d, managed 10 miles with 5 LT in the pouring rain, thinking of swapping sunday's long run to Saturday as struggled with the pace over the faster 5 miles...

Off to the Adidas marathon training session in london tmrw night, won tickets in Dec. Included is a gait analysis + free pair of trainers worth £80, nutritional advice + a professional athlete is meant to be on hand to give training advice. Shall feed back any intetesting advice after.
25/01/2011 at 21:25
Was posting same time as you Minni - hope you're feeling better soon!
25/01/2011 at 21:41
DD / Moraghan. What do you two think to getting rep speeds off http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/ and using the online calculator they have?
A 1h41 HM comes out at the following paces for reps:
800m: 3m20 to 3m29s
1000m: 4m16 to 4m26s
1200m: 5m08 to 5m23s
1600m: 6m59 to 7m15s

Does this fit inline with what you'd recommend? I've found McMillan to be pretty good in terms of paces and what you should be capable of hitting
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