RW Forum Six - Sub 3:30

Minni v Dubai Dave

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Dubai Dave    pirate
25/01/2011 at 11:25
BB: Quite agree that 10 x 800 at 3-30's would be perfect for Minni, would mean breaking the P & D schedule though and I'm not sure she wants to do that.
25/01/2011 at 12:25
I like mile reps at 5km pace myself. I usually manage 5 with 2 minutes recovery.
25/01/2011 at 12:54
I'm not against breaking the p&d in favour of putting in yassos. Where would I fit them in? Would it mean changing a whole session or incorporating them into an existing one?
25/01/2011 at 13:10

IMO you can't just stick in an interval workout like 10 * 800m without it being part of some sort of progression where it fits in sensibly with what has been before and with what is coming up.

A couple of other things with regards to a VO2 max session (if that, indeed is the goal):

1)  For a runner of your ability doing these intervals at 5k pace is much too slow for vo2 max training.

2)  5m is way too stressful a total volume for VO2 max training if done at your correct vo2 max pace.

It's going to take a bit of thought to incorporate vo2 max training into your schedule.  It's also not something that you should plan to do solely in an attempt to address cramp issues - you'd better have a better reason!

Edited: 25/01/2011 at 13:11
25/01/2011 at 13:28
I have been doing 800 intervals, and am up to 5 reps, a gradual progression over the last few weeks, been doing them 10 seconds faster than my 5k pace per mile, is that fast enough?
Dubai Dave    pirate
25/01/2011 at 14:52

There are VO2 max sessions & LT runs in the P & D schedule I just need to find where I have put my copy again. I agree with Moraghan to a certain point in that you can't just parachute a 10 x 800 into a schedule it has to be built up to and indeed perhaps passed. But at the same time we don't want to make this too complicated, the whole thing you need to be getting used to is running at and  indeed faster than your race paces. 

I doubt if many runners actually understand the terms VO2 and LT fully, I wouldn't begin to think that I do its simply not in my areas of expertise (however if you want to know about ships I'm pretty good) though I get the idea. Speed work does many things but in my opinion the benefits which are oftern overlooked are that it gives the runner confidence that they are able to run at paces far faster than their general aerobic pace, and that it teaches the runner to know what different paces feel like and hit them without reference. Running at race pace for extended periods can be further developed by tempo runs or as I prefer by running lots of shorter races though not necessarily flat out.  Marathon training is not rocket science, LSR, Tempo, Intervals Medium LR, two recoveries, rest day pretty well covers any schedule, the variances are how you do those tempo / speed sessions.

IMO too many people get hung up on the technocalities of the sport, if you want to run fast you have to train fast some of the time. How you do that could be the subject of many a book but as long as there is progression in so far as you do more reps or do them faster or reduce the recovery period you are progressing rather than stagnating.

In short there are many ways to crack a nut.

25/01/2011 at 14:57
25/01/2011 at 15:40
I am following this but only have my iPhone today - not great for responding in detail. I will digest and post later......
25/01/2011 at 21:15

Feeling unwell......  I thought on Sunday afternoon I had a bad case of 'runners tum', took yesterday off work and felt better today.  Went out for my run tonight, got 2 miles in and had to come home feeling really sick.  My daughter has it too

Right down to business....

Moraghan wrote (see)

IMO you can't just stick in an interval workout like 10 * 800m without it being part of some sort of progression where it fits in sensibly with what has been before and with what is coming up.

A couple of other things with regards to a VO2 max session (if that, indeed is the goal):

1)  For a runner of your ability doing these intervals at 5k pace is much too slow for vo2 max training.

2)  5m is way too stressful a total volume for VO2 max training if done at your correct vo2 max pace.

It's going to take a bit of thought to incorporate vo2 max training into your schedule.  It's also not something that you should plan to do solely in an attempt to address cramp issues - you'd better have a better reason!

DD / Moraghan  There are VO2 max sessions in my schedule, starting the middle of February and lasting for seven weeks (one session per week).  They start at 5 x 800m and change through 600m, 1000m and 1200m as the weeks progress. 

I have never raced a 5k so I wouldn't really know what it is.  My first three miles on Sunday were around 7.15 so maybe I could knock 15 seconds off that, or is that too slow? (just read back and that's actually around the pace Badbark suggested...) I do sometimes find when I glance at my garmin that I'm running at about 6.45 pace but that's probably on a slight downhill. 

 Our club doesn't do 'speed' sessions as such but we do do lots of hill reps!    I have an 800m (or just a smidgen under) piece of flattish road earmarked for that session, which can be extended onto another road to get right up to 1200m.  

25/01/2011 at 21:23
Get well soon Minni
25/01/2011 at 21:23
Following P&d, managed 10 miles with 5 LT in the pouring rain, thinking of swapping sunday's long run to Saturday as struggled with the pace over the faster 5 miles...

Off to the Adidas marathon training session in london tmrw night, won tickets in Dec. Included is a gait analysis + free pair of trainers worth £80, nutritional advice + a professional athlete is meant to be on hand to give training advice. Shall feed back any intetesting advice after.
25/01/2011 at 21:25
Was posting same time as you Minni - hope you're feeling better soon!
25/01/2011 at 21:41
DD / Moraghan. What do you two think to getting rep speeds off http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/ and using the online calculator they have?
A 1h41 HM comes out at the following paces for reps:
800m: 3m20 to 3m29s
1000m: 4m16 to 4m26s
1200m: 5m08 to 5m23s
1600m: 6m59 to 7m15s

Does this fit inline with what you'd recommend? I've found McMillan to be pretty good in terms of paces and what you should be capable of hitting
25/01/2011 at 22:35

I don't think they're all that useful.  The paces you do for each rep distance will depend on the purpose / overall volume and recovery for the session.  It also makes the assumption that the longer the rep the slower the pace which I don't necessarily agree with. 

A 400m could be done at 10k race pace (for a repped LT workout) or 800m race pace depending on the objective.

Knowing the purpose and overall context of the session beforehand is what will dictate rep length, pace, recovery, recovery speed.

Minni - a good guideline for vo2 max workouts are:

Your 8 min race pace for 2:30 - 3:00 w / recovery up to rep duration.

Your 15 min race pace for 4:00 - 5:00 w / recovery up to 3:00.

Those paces can be derived from prediction calculators and your volume will be dictated by what you can handle but usually 15:00 for the former and 20:00 for the latter are more than enough.  Whether your time is better invested in non-vo2 max workouts whilst marathon training is a different matter altogether.

Anyway, didn't mean to derail the thread - it's probably better just to stick to the schedule you've committed to.

Edited: 25/01/2011 at 22:36
Dubai Dave    pirate
26/01/2011 at 05:08

Minni, hope you feel better soon. 

 I sometimes look at Macmillan pacing table, usually if I'm wondering what my rep times come out if I want to achieve a new target such as 40 min 10K for example, then I can see how much quicker I would need to be in my intervals.  I agree with Morgahan that you don't necessarily slow down on longer reps as the purpose of the reps can change.

However on this thread we are talking about marathon training, out and out speed is not a issue but being able to race shorter distances at considerably faster than MP is a issue. Relistically Minni is not going to race a distance shorter than 10K between now and her marathon therefore as Moraghan has suggested above there is probably not much point in getting too hung up on VO2 workouts.

P & D has VO2 and LT sessions on alternate weeks, I think you should be doing one of each every week but lets stick with the schedule! I think for the sake of simplicity if we assume that LT runs should be at 1/2M pace which for Minni should be about 7-30 pace, and the VO2 or interval sessions at around 5K pace or 7-00 pace.  The schedule uses 600 /800/1200/1600 intervals I don't think it actually matters a damn what distance you use and that the variance is more for the sake of variety than anything else.

I always use 800 reps as my reference point even though I do lots of various speed sessions, I start the season running 6 x 800 @ 5K pace off 2 minute recoveries, build to 10 x 800 at same pace and recoveries, then start reducing the recoveries until I get to 1 minute and thereafter increase the pace.  Because I have been using this method of gauging my fitness for years I have a pretty good idea of what I'm capable of race wise at anytime.

Some books will tell you that about 6 weeks of interval work will prep you for a race, I prefer to run speedwork every week for around 9 months of the year but as i say its a gradual build up over the period but then I race a lot over distances from 800M to ultras.

So in short Minni you can stick to the schedule or use any distance of rep you want for speedwork, whats important is to see progression and as your speedwork period is quite small it might be better to stick to one distance to be able to gauge progress more easily.  Sorry to go on about this but you really need to get those tempo and interval sessions done at around the paces I'm talking about here. What we want is that you feel very comfortable at MP.

26/01/2011 at 07:49

Some really good info on here now.

Minni, CG - hope you both feel better soon.

26/01/2011 at 18:07

DD / Moraghan - thanks for the comments.  Mmm food for thought....

DD the VO2 max reps don't start for another 3 weeks.  Do you think I should get them started sooner?  And, you're suggesting just sticking to one distance, does it matter which distance?  Or rather is one distance better than another for marathon training?

I'm feeling much better today (or at least better than I did last night!).  I've been starving all day so piling the calories in!  I'm not going to run tonight. It would have been a recovery 5 miles and I think I'm better giving myself more time to recover and will hopefully be ok for sessions tomorrow night (6 miles with strides), Friday (10 with 5 LT), then 18 long run on Sunday.  

AA - Hope your week is going well.

Kiwi - what a fantastic prize!  Can't wait to hear all about it! 

Alison - Are you following a schedule?  How are you finding the 800s?

26/01/2011 at 21:08

I am shattered at the moment - think its the training catching up. 4x1600s on Monday, 5 miles recovery yesterday and 5 miles threshold today.

Minni - good idea for a rest day - glad you're feeling better today.

26/01/2011 at 22:06
Iron Man v Ultra Runner  I have copied this from the 3.15 thread - very funny.  I think I'm a mixture of the two.... worrying!!
Dubai Dave    pirate
27/01/2011 at 05:17

Minni, as a former ultra runner who is working towards an Ironman I find that video quite accurate! There are certainly lots of people in the Tri scene who are obsessed with the latest kit, have to admit it is one of the attractions toys for boys! Interestingly here in Dubai there are very few regulars in the running scene who are also Triathletes and vice versa, it’s like two parallel universes.

As to starting speed work sooner rather than later, that’s a tough call as schedules are written for a reason and we assume that P & D are better qualified than the likes of myself.  This is one of the reasons I make my own schedules!  At the moment the schedule is giving you 2 rest days a week, myself I would ditch one of them and run intervals BUT I have trained 6 or more days a week for years, if you’re comfortable with an extra day then give it a try.

Is any distance of rep better than another for marathon training? I don't really think it makes any difference when you get up to and past 800M, for example whatever set of intervals I do it pretty well comes out at a total of 6.5 to 8K at pace.  Examples would be 10 x 800M or 8 x 1K, or 5 x 1600M, Pyramid 500 /1000/1500/2000/1500/1000/500. I also like 6 x 1000 followed by 8 x 200 fast, as this gets you used to running faster on tired legs as you will at the end of most races.  At the end of the day it’s your call BUT I wouldn't leap in at 8K of speed work, 5K would be more like it to begin with.

Edited: 27/01/2011 at 05:18
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