RW Forum Six - Sub 3:30

Minni v Dubai Dave

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31/01/2011 at 22:37

Great run AA - 10 weeks is a long time...... yikes, is it only 10 weeks...?

 I had a session with the physio tonight.  I must admit I love it!  Nothing to worry about with the hamstrings, just a bit tight.  Had a good doing over with ultrasound, bowen, acupuncture, stretching etc.   Feeling better already!  

Here's something new for the equation - my dog has done the deed tonight with her handsome stud.  Perfectly timed for puppies in 9 weeks time (taper time) and they'll be easily looked after while were away for the marathon. Hopefully

Dubai Dave    pirate
01/02/2011 at 04:18


AA: Hey your doing it, nice run, It always amazes me what people are capable of once you pin a number on their vest.

Minni: I really must get down to the physio tomorrow and try to get my calf muscles sorted out, what breed of dog?

01/02/2011 at 07:36

Oh Minni - how exciting! My dog had 9 puppies 3 weeks before the marathon 3 years ago. Hard work but great fun

Getting myself mentally prepared for my 6 x 1200s this morning. Last hard one of the week as I'm away for 3 days and think my body is telling me I need a rest. Knee starting to tweak  Then will do 14 miles on Saturday.

DD - you recovered from Dubai yet?

01/02/2011 at 08:38

DD I'm a great believer in physio sessions and sports massage.... mainly because I get to lie down for an hour!   I've always had trouble with my calf muscles but changed my shoes recently and, so far, have had no twinges whatsoever.  Fingers crossed.  Are you running or still sticking to the bike?  

The dog is a labrador and has a red fox line in her.  We've been all around the country trying to find a suitable male for her and hopefully last night sealed the deal!  He is a handsome black lab

We organise a 20 mile fell run July and the online entries are now open Chevy Chase Online Entries  if anyone fancies a trip to Northumberland...... 

Dubai Dave    pirate
01/02/2011 at 10:32

Minni: It is changing shoes that caused my present woes! I knew full well that running in low heeled shoes cuased my calves to tighten up, but had got away with it up to 1/2M and decided to try it in a full marathon with the resulting problems! Have been running a little, 10 miles on Sunday and went to club run last night, all was well until I stepped up about 3 gears and started running at about 6.5 min/miles when it all started to stiffen up so dropped to a trot and went home after 5 miles. Feel fine today but have given it a rest and cycled pre dawn, swam at lunchtime.  Seeing physio on Sunday, this is a new one as he was highly recommended and my previous physio left Dubai.

good luck with the dog and the race, almost tempting

01/02/2011 at 11:15
The dog or the race DD?!!
Dubai Dave    pirate
01/02/2011 at 13:56
LOL Race!!
01/02/2011 at 17:06
Ha!  Get entered then!  There's a limit of 300 and a third of them have been taken already.
01/02/2011 at 20:32
Liz Yelling is v down to earth and you can follow her on Twitter: girlwhatruns. She was fantastic on my thread last year and provided TONNES of support to Hash behind the scenes of her thread when she had her injury issues. She coached me for free in the intervening bit between London and Chester last year and everything that's been written above is what was covered by her in that period.
I even e-mailed her after my HM PB in the autumn even though we'd finished months earlier as I put into practice her coaching ideas and she was pleased for me.
'tis a shame she wasn't re-engaged for this year's SSX along with Steve. I think she really "got" the mentor bit of the SSX and really interacted with the forum users. She even chipped into the gel debate on JBFAR's sub 3 thread at one point even though she wasn't mentoring on it.
01/02/2011 at 21:37
Yeah, Liz Yelling was very down to earth + had such good advice. I was gutted when i went to work the next day + people were like Liz who?!

6.5 miles here tonight, mixing it up still between p+d and runner's world, did warm up + down with 6x 800m intervals. Definately better tho doing the long run on Saturday, legs weren't as mashed tonight
01/02/2011 at 21:38
here here MM.
01/02/2011 at 22:17
Kiwi, if you do a long run on a Sunday, do you run on Monday? You need a slow paced run the day after to de-mash your legs. I always run 6-8 Sat slow, long on Sunday, 9 slow on Monday, session on Tuesday. Also, if your legs are mashed the long run is probably too fast. Wednesday my legs are mashed aft the session. Not Monday.

I also did 6 x 800m tonight
02/02/2011 at 12:46

2 sessions to report today. 

Last night: plan was 7 miles genral aerobic including 6 x 100m strides.  We had a coach at the club last night and he had planned 4 x 1 mile @ 10k pace with 2 minute recovery.  I had a 12 mile to do this morning so didn't want to push it.  I ended up with 7 miles @ 8.51 pace and used the mile reps to do my 100m strides.  All sounds ok?  No not really.  I found the whole session hard and finished feeling sick with stomach cramps again, and needing to make a dash to the loo!  I'd taken care to make sure I ate well yesterday - cereal for breakfast, baked potato with tuna for lunch, a cheese sandwich an hour before the session and I was well hydrated.  I felt much better a couple of hours later.

 This morning - Plan was 12 miles mid/long run at 8.20 pace.  I started feeling a bit nervous after last night and forgot to take water!!  I literally ran 6 miles out and 6 back.  Average 8.25, and managed the second half quicker than the first (I'm constantly aware of the negative split etc).  The main problem this morning was the wind - The pace up one particular hill was 30 seconds quicker going up than when I'd run down it with a head wind!   Splits - 8.51; 8.21; 8.37; 8.26; 8.41 (this was the downhill!); 8.37; 8.12; 7.59; 8.16; 8.20; 8.09; 8.24.  I felt a bit sick when I finished but once I'd had a drink and something to eat I felt fine.

I listened to 'Marathon Talk' with a interview with Liz McColgan - what a runner!  On marathon training she said she ran all her LSRs at 5.XX pace.....!

Dubai Dave    pirate
02/02/2011 at 17:45

Minni well done for getting out there and hitting your targets today, what do you think was the real problem last night?

I suspect that you shy away from the thought of intervals, IMO you are going to have to start on occasion doing back to back hard sessions, to me a 4 x 1 Mile at 10K pace off 2 mins followed by the next day by 12 at MP + 20 secs isn't a particularly hard couple of sessions. You are going to have to start putting in those intervals at some point.

My marathon times didn't improve until I started doing regular speed work, its simply essential to  teach you to feel the pace, i can't go on about it enough you have to be able to run 8 min/miles comfortably by feel.

AA: Today was the first day I felt that I had just about recovered from Dubai, a) I ran 13K without my calves tightening b) I put in 6 x 800 off 2 min recoveries in the middle they were all in the 3 to 3-05 bracket or sub 4 min/K pace and that tells me I'm at about 42 min 10K fitness.

MM: Liz Yelling is a top lady, there are some of her ex club mates here in Dubai they all speak very higly of her.

02/02/2011 at 18:22

Mr Spoons - I always used to do a slow recovery run on a Monday after a long Sunday run, so far this year I have followed the schedule and rested.  Usually I would do an easy 5 miles on the Saturday, having decided to do long runs on a Saturday now, I will do the 5 miles as a recovery on Sunday instead.  Hopefully, then the legs will be fresher by Tuesday.

Minni, I understand your difficulties with intervals/speed, that's why I hate 10kms so much, I'm always thinking, why am I running this?!  I haven't been to my club for a while due to work, but intend to head along next week, it's definately easier to push yourself harder when running with others.

D.D - interesting what you say about doing back to back hard sessions, I've always worried about the possibility of injury with this?  Tonight's schedule for me is the medium long run - can I just check what pace I should be aiming for with medium long runs? I'd read in P&D that medium long runs should be run at a similar pace to long runs.  Also I plan to do my 10 miles LT tomorrow night instead of Friday as this fits in better for me - I had been concerned this may be too much back to back? 

Any advice much appreciated, this is the first year that I have mixed up my marathon training a bit between 2 schedules (Runner's world and P&D), am just worried about over doing it or not running at the correct pace to get the best out of a session!

 Time to hit the pavement  

02/02/2011 at 19:15

Last night was a recovery with 10 x 100 strides and I wanted to stick to the schedule;  I would have struggled with the hilly mile reps anyway because of how I was feeling.  I've been like this before when marathon training: dodgy tummy, feeling sick etc and it must be down to diet.  I eat healthily and don't eat much crap anyway, but I think I need to increase the calories, or rather carbs, when I'm doing this sort of training.  I've changed from a sandwich to baked potato for lunch etc.  The problem is the more training I do the less I want to eat carbs and sometimes even the thought of bread, potato or pasta makes me feel sick. Last night all I could feel was the potato that I'd had about 1pm sitting in my stomach. 

Kiwi - My pace for medium long run is 8.20, long run 8.50.

Like kiwi, I'm concerned that doing 2 hard back to back sessions will bring on injury.  The P & D book talks about always following a hard day with an easier one.  I know runners who are doing high mileage will do session after session but what kind of back to back sessions are good for us who are running about 50 miles per week?

02/02/2011 at 21:58
Kiwi - sounds like a good plan. A recovery run will aid recovery quicker than a rest day.
Dubai Dave    pirate
03/02/2011 at 04:56

Minni / Kiwi: Medium long runs should probably be at about the same pace as your long runs. Personally I don't see a problem with a LT run (hopefully you should be doing the 5 miles of LT at around 1/2M pace) being followed by a medium long run. In my case this would mean I had done 5 miles at somewhere close to 7 min/mile pace followed the next day by 12 or so at 8-30 min/mile. What that shows is that your long run pace is a lot slower than 1/2M pace and therefore a lot less stressful. recovery runs are so slow as to be actually quite dificult to slow down that much.

I would be concerned if you were doing interval sessions on sucessive days, but a tempo run followed or proceeded by intervals should be OK.  50 mile weeks is not exactly low mileage is not high but its more than enough for marathon running. P & D does indeed have a easy day / hard day approach and in general that is a sensible approach, however the point I'm trying to make is a) schedules are not cast in stone b) P & D actually doesn't have much in the way of intervals in the schedules and this IMO is their one weakness. c) So if you accept that intervals are needed at some point you have to make room for them and this will mean back to back hardish days.  Injury is always lurking and we are all one stride from injury, but with sensible warm ups Injuries can be minimised. I wouldn't dream of doing intervals without at least a 2 mile warm up slow accelerating throughout.

Kiwi: you will learn more about racing and pacing doing 10K's than anywhere else, its the perfect mix of speed and endurance. Just remember that the pain in a 10K only lasts for about 2K or 8 minutes or so, in a marathon it can be 5 miles or 45 minutes! Race 10Ks well and they will teach you pacing, negative splits and tactics, plus its all over in 40 mins, further advantage is you don't need much recovery and can race them weekly if you want.

03/02/2011 at 19:34

Right!  I have been on the treadmill and done some of those blooming 800m reps!  My schedule has them starting in two weeks time at 5 x 800. So, with this in mind I did 3, then I can do 4 next week and 5 the next.  The session was 2.5k warm up followed by 3 x 800m @ 6.54 m/m pace the a cool down.  Seriously, I would struggle to run them any faster on the treadmill but would hope to be a bit faster outdoors. 

Tomorrow is 10 miles with 6 @ LT.  Its blowing a hooley out there and we had a touch of snow this morning - I hope its calmer tomorrow. 

03/02/2011 at 21:33

Well done on getting stuck into the intervals Minni!

 Just been catching up after a patch of being horrendously busy with work, which unfortunately has also been affecting the amount of running I can do. I think I'm going to have to bite the bullet and start running home, although I don't enjoy running with a backpack on at all. Minni, I hope it's okay to ask a question on your thread but I was wondering if there's any sessions I should avoid if I'm running with a backpack, e.g. is it okay for a medium long run but not good for intervals?

 On the diet thing it's worth experimenting a bit, too much fibre can cause problems or too much dairy for some people. Haven't really sussed it myself though other than knowing I need to leave at least 2 hours after a meal before running.

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