RW Forum Six - Sub 3:30

Minni v Dubai Dave

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23/12/2010 at 18:16

Hello to MM, B&B, CC2 from the sub 3.15 thread.  I have had loads of advice from MM already - you should have been a mentor for the snubbed six

CG you've done some cracking marathons and I'm looking forward to our annual catch up at Blackheath! 

Pammie, I'm sure you'll do it.

Martin I'm liking all this psychological talk.  Maybe I won't need to train!

23/12/2010 at 18:21

Joddly - interesting approach there (adding ironman training to get a marathon pb).  How far under 3.30 did you get?

Freemers I'll do my best   Mr Spoons - right now it'll be a snow jacket!

23/12/2010 at 18:43
Dubai Dave wrote (see)

Minni: Clearly you have no problem with endurance with 7 marathons under your belt. I'm sure we can get you below 3-30. It took me 23 marathons to break that barier myself but once I had done it once it became second nature which I think to a large extent shows that it was for me a mental barrier rather than a physical one.

 So what is your pb Dave?  I like the fact it took you 23 marathons!  That is a lot of runnng!   On the endurance front I've also done a few off road things that have been 5-6 hours duration. 

Dubai Dave wrote (see)
I'm glad your using P & D schedules I happen to think they are the best out there for marathon runners,particuarly as they include a medium / long run mid week. Having said that I don't use schedules anymore as | work on the on the principle of  one long run, one tempo run, one speedwork session, one medium long run and fill in the rest with swimming, cycling or running will get me there. If I'm serious about a marathon then I know I need a few weeks around the 60 MPW to get me a good time.

A few more questions to see where we are starting from, do you train with a club?, what are your 1/2M & 10K PB's?, do you regularly race? As you will soon realise I will race anything be it running, swimming, Triathlon, Aquathon, Duathlon, but this approach most definately isn't for everyone and probably doesn't give you the best results you could achieve with being more selective.

 The P & D hasn't really worked the past two weeks due to the amount of snow and ice we have here.  I've put a thaw on my Christmas list.  I'll get a long run in on boxing morning and hoping to do a mid run tomorrow. 

My half pb is 1.36 but ran 1.40 at the end of October which may be a better indication of where I am now.  Doing my next half in 4 weeks time.  My 10k pb is about 48 I think,  although I might have done 46 sometime in the past.....  

I don't race very much because there are not many races, except fell races, around here.  I try to do the x-country series but they have been cancelled due to the snow. I find short distances really hard and get quite anxious.  Last year I did two marathons back to back (3.32 & 3.43) but suffered the rest of the year, especially on the shorter races, with cramp when I tried to up the pace.

 I run with a club (I am the Chair at the moment)  Wooler Running Club.  We have a club session on a Tuesday night which is off-road in the summer and in the town in the winter.  We generally do 5-6 miles in a session which includes some type of speed work: strides, hills, intervals etc.  Basically, when I'm marathon training I make a session based on my schedule and others join in if they want.  There are another couple doing spring marathons this year.   I have managed to persuade a fellow runner to do some tempo running with me.  I did some long runs for my last marathon with him and he kept me at a pace faster than I was used to in training so I'm hoping this will be a positive.

Dubai Dave    pirate
23/12/2010 at 18:45

Without doubt cross training can reduce your running times, since starting full on IM training I have beaten my 10 mile and 1/2M PB's off vastly reduced weekly mileages, we will see how that stacks up with a marathon on January 21st .  But being a runner at heart I do wonder what I might have done if I had trained specifically for running over those distances.

Minni mental training is every bit as important as physical training, bad / negative thoughts have to be banished and learning how to do that is vital, one of my favourite tricks is to count my footfalls when I start to struggle / have negative thoughts. I can almost guarentee that by the time you have counted 500 steps you will have long forgotten what you were worrying about.

M...eldy    pirate
23/12/2010 at 19:05
Can I just add weight to the counting thing ... I have used this is many IMs and Dave is so very right, it focusses the mind and if like me you become more concentrated on counting you get into a zone or a rythym and everything else goes away .... a few more have adopted this strategy and it seems to work

Good luck on your quest and we will follow with interest !
Dubai Dave    pirate
23/12/2010 at 19:32

Minni: Present Marathon PB is 3-25 but I'm sure I can beat that as I ran a 1-32 half last week on a very dificult course, when I first went under 3-30 I was running 1-37 1/2 M's . If you stick 1-32 in a race predictor calculator you get around 3-13 in my dreams!

Like you I have always had stacks of endurance, I've run 10 or so Ultras the longest being the Ridgeway at 87 miles. However I think the things that eventually got me below 3-30 was a) regular speed work b) running the last 10K of my long training runs at Marathon pace or often better. I really believe that running fast ( well at least faster) for the last part of your long training runs is a highly effective.

I also used to hate the shorter stuff ( only a marathon runner can call  a 10K race short) but once I got into 10K's a) I found them enjoyable and b) I got faster at the longer stuff. I think that racing 10K's would really help you to improve your marathon times, if nothing else 10k's teach you to run at  a steady pace for extended periods.  They can also teach you to run negative or even splits, to me its essential to be able to know what each pace feels like, be able to hold a steady pace for extended periods and lastly have the ability to run negative spilits / speed up towards the end. As a matter of interest have your previous marathons been run at a steady pace or have you slowed towards the end?

23/12/2010 at 19:54

Hi Minni.

I didn't blow 3.30 out of the water or anything  - 3.27 in London and 3.26 at Abingdon, but it made me happy! And the whole IM thing was such a great voyage of discovery as I hadn't really cycled or swum before, so it's been a lovely year really. It feels as though I've got faster over most distances without having to focus on going faster, if that makes any sense!

I was a super-six reject, and I'm not sure I'd have had such a good year if I'd been in.

Oh, and Hi Meldy .

24/12/2010 at 00:56

Dave - I've never run a negative split but my marathons haven't slowed too much before the end. I've never hit the wall.  Although I've tended to slow slightly towards the end I've often speeded up again in mile 24 or 25.  I have the mile splits of my last marathon and will post them when I sober up a bit (just back from 'Christmas drinks!)

Joddly - sorry you were a SSix reject and I agree with you.  The pressure would be immense. This is much more relaxed.....

more wine anyone? 

24/12/2010 at 16:47

A  refreshing 5.5 miles with an average of 9.17 - getting quicker so must be getting used to running in the snow.   

Merry Christmas! 

Dubai Dave    pirate
24/12/2010 at 17:24

Yep I found running in the snow tough today as well, also a little cooler than my normal running temps, see you all after Christmas

25/12/2010 at 23:04

Running in the Christmas snow!

There has been a slight thaw here today so I'm planning a 12 mile run in the morning.  I'm hoping it won't be too icy and can maybe get a little bit of speed up.

Dubai Dave    pirate
26/12/2010 at 15:07

I managed 13 miles in the snow, that wasn't easy and I never got above about 8-30 min /miles, no thaw here, my boxing day 10K was cancelled as was the footbal match, ah well left more time for a trot along the towpath.

Hope everyone else had a good xmas,

27/12/2010 at 21:48

DD these are the splits from my recent marathon.    It was a 5 laps and I have marked the miles which housed the 'hill'.  It wasn't a killer hill but it was grass and as the laps worn on it got tougher due to the wet conditions.  I ran this will a club mate and it was his first marathon.  He flagged a bit in the last couple of miles, in particular mile 25.  I was feeling strong at this point but stuck with him (did leave him in the last 400m though....).  

1 08:33.42  
2    07:56.74
3    08:06.05
4    07:57.00 H
5    07:34.93
6    08:03.98
7    08:01.00
8    08:06.46
9    08:20.90 H
10   07:41.42
11   08:11.45
12   08:09.57
13   08:12.98    14 08:32.66 H
15   07:39.45
16   08:07.48
17   08:11.39
18   07:56.91  
19   08:26.45H
20   08:09.98
21   08:04.17
22   08:30.47
23   08:23.00
24   08:28.87 H
25   09:03.88
26   08:13.27
0.2  03:23.72

08:11:00  Avg pace
Edited: 27/12/2010 at 21:54
27/12/2010 at 22:07

Can't get mile 14 to go into line!

I always stick to a plan but never really stick to any pace.  In the past my LSR (in fact most runs)  have more often than not been over 9mm but the view I'm  getting from the P & D is that my training needs to speed up somewhat. 

I'm interested to know your views on doing some of my LSR off road in the hills?  This would give a slow pace of around 11+mm but do you think there is an advantage of adding some of these if I'm doing a mid run at around marathon pace?

10K - its hard for me to race that distance because there are very few in this area, literally only a handful in the year.  However, we used to hold a club 10k so I have a marked course on my door step.  Perhaps I could  add that into my schedule. 

28/12/2010 at 07:11

Well done Minni!!

Found you and will be following along. Does this mean you'll be on red FGFA or Green next year. Have to do the anual celeb spot!!!

16 week training schedule started yesterday...

28/12/2010 at 08:25
I'm on Green AA - ready for the party! I think CG will be there too.  Glad to see you  back.  How was the schedule yesterday?!
seren nos    pirate
28/12/2010 at 08:33
Minni.......I tried doing a race of my own last year for a schedule.......even got my OH to run with me to help keep me going.................But found I just couldn't get that adrenaline buzz that hits you at a was slower than hoped for.......
28/12/2010 at 09:40

Waves to AA

Yes, I'll be on Green again. Just like old times. What time are you going for AA?

28/12/2010 at 16:00

seren - I can understand that.  Did you try it a few times?  I'm not keen for the reasons you said, but may have to attempt it.  I might be able to get some others to join in and make it a bit of a 'fun' race.  I could do it every three weeks or so.  I'll see what Dave thinks....

AA, CG - I'll bring with wine if you bring the crisps?

My schedule says 10miles general aerobic for today so the plan is to do 5 or so then join the club for another 5.   The bible says the general aerobic pace is 15-25% slower than marathon pace, which is slower than LSR pace.  I would have thought it would have been a bit faster.  

28/12/2010 at 16:08

How fast does P & D have the long runs at, Minni? I seem to remember that they are progressive?

7 miles for me today including 8 x 300m hills. I love and hate this session with equal passion. Back to 5:30 am starts again tomorrow.

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