RW Forum Six - Sub 3:30

Minni v Dubai Dave

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03/01/2011 at 14:14

I find the only way to get through January (definately the most depressing month) is to be so busy fitting in my running schedule that work is forgotten altogether. 

I lift my head at the start of Feb and wonder where the time went.

03/01/2011 at 21:45
Steve Marathon Coach wrote (see)

Agree treadmill isn't always easy to run fast on and in the early weeks, hitting the paces isn't too essential. It's in the latter weeks that count. You have months to get fit and faster.

Running too fast in training isn't recomended - as the others wise words have said, now is just about building endurance - 9 to 10 minute miles is fine for the slower runs and sub-8 for the speedwork - it's the feel and the effort at this stage that matters more than the numbers


I've copied this from Kryptonites thread regarding the pace of runs.  Encouraging!
Dubai Dave    pirate
04/01/2011 at 06:34

Morning Everyone, back in the land of sunshine and more importantly internet access!

Minni: Reading what you have been posting I think that you have already decided that you need to put in more work at a higher pace than you have done in the past, for what its worth I agree completely! Based on my own experience it was only when I started including tempo runs of about 6 -8 miles at 1/2M pace plus speedwork sessions each week that I finally cracked the 3-30 barrier.

If there are no 10K races around your area then time trials with club mates could be a good substitute, I believe that racing 10K's teaches you to run at a pace and maintain that pace. Speed work is also good for this, if you want to run 8 min / miles consistently for 26 miles you need to know exactly what that pace feels like and be able to hit it without the aid of a garmin or anything else. Of course its also necessary to build in sufficient recovery runs as well into your weekly schedule. 

As to running your LSR off road on a hilly routes, why not? I do most of my long runs on undulating sand and gravel tracks, hills are your friend! The splits you posted for your most recent marathon show that you slowed towards the end therefore running at race pace for the last section of your long runs will help to teach you how to maintain pace on tired legs.

I will dig out my copy of P & D tonight and see where you are at, but it seems that your manging to keep to the schedule OK, as someone posted above schedules are written for a reason and this is the base building stage so there is no need to get obsessed about speed yet but also there is a need to keep some speed work in there. For example back in August when I started training for Athens marathon and then Dubai I was running my tempo runs at 4-40 min/K's and my speed work was 6 x 800M at 4-20 min/K off 2 minute recoveries where as now with three weeks to Dubai tempo runs are around 4-20 Min/K and and I tend to do 8 x 1K at 4-00 min/k off 75 second recoveries, progression!

04/01/2011 at 16:26

Welcome back! 

So far I'm managing the schedule no problem (just started week 4).   I feel suitably tired after a session but have recovered in time for the next.  The real challenge will be in about 6 weeks time when I'm trying to hit 55 miles per week.  I've done this mileage before but usually by including a couple of double days, mainly for the time factor.  However, The Bible says that doubles are not beneficial unless you are running 55+ miles per week.  I can understand this because the aim is the consistent longer runs, but what is your opinion?  I used to do a 5 in the morning followed by a harder 5 in the evening. 

Off road hills - Would I adjust the mileage to account for the hills.  For example, a 15 mile road run would be easier and much quicker than a 15 mile run in the hills around here.  Therefore, would I run for 2hrs15 in the hills and not worry too much about the time and pace? Or, concentrate on still running the 15 miles but accept it will take much longer.

What time are you aiming for in Dubai?  It must be really hard to run in that heat! 

M...eldy    pirate
04/01/2011 at 18:51
Just checking that we are all alive in here .......... and then I see that Dave is back in a few degrees warmer than we are as I sit here under a sleeping bag with fingerless gloves on !

Happy training  
M...eldy    pirate
04/01/2011 at 18:56
There is nothing wrong with being under a bridge

damn, we have been outposted by an Asics Sixer 
04/01/2011 at 21:35

Hi M & KK!  Thanks for popping in!  I'm trying hard to stay off the wine and on target.  Ooops, I've had a couple of glasses tonight....

8.7 for me tonight with an average of 8.57.  Did my 10x 100m strides as pushing on up the hills. Followed by aforementioned wine.... 

04/01/2011 at 23:02
I'm on a traditional January 4th break from the booze. It usually lasts around a week, but I have a half mara next weekend so hopefully it might last 2 weeks this year
04/01/2011 at 23:16
Knackered here, after having to get up early for work! Managed a steady 7 miles, would be nice if it wasn't so dark out!
Dubai Dave    pirate
05/01/2011 at 05:22


My staying off the booze once I was back in Dubai lasted 27 hours, though surely one small G & T isn't really alcohol? Mind you the second one was larger!

Doubles: Clearly there is more benefit in doing your long runs in a single run, however if you are truely stuck for time then I believe that there is a benefit in using doubles to hit the mileage though I would do the hard run in the morning and the recovery in the evening.  I have used doubles extensively in the past when Ultra training but my weekly mileage was in the 75 MPW + area.  If possible I would try to find the time to do the 10 miles in one run, have no idea with regard to your work / family / life commitments but i find that silly oclock is the time!

As to running in the hills  / on road it comes down to whether you train by miles or hours, traditionally I trained by miles but since becoming (well at least attempting) a Triathlete I have started training by Hours, a one hour run is just that regardless of how far I go. So i think the answer to your question is dependent on which mindset you are working with, if you can accept that 2hours 30 minutes in the hills will give you less distance than on the road go with it, if your stuck on mileage targets your going to be out there longer!

I'm hoping for a sub 3-30 in Dubai but would not stake my house on it as I have rarely run more than 35 miles a week since last April as I was sick / injured and then Triathlon training, However my latest 1/2M was 1-32 which is 5 minutes quicker than it was prior to my last sub 3-30 marathon, I also PB'd at 10 miles so its going to boil down to whether my endurance is good enough on the basis of a lot of cross training.  Its not so hot here at the moment 25C in teh day, 15C at night pleasant!

05/01/2011 at 15:10

Mr Spoons - which half are you doing? Are you hopeful of a pb?

kiwi - the dark is a pain.  My run last night was done by torch light and its a pain.  The roads here are churned up with the frost and ice and its hard to see pot holes.  Roll on the spring.....

Dave - I'm off for a 5 mile recovery now but will post again on my return.... 

05/01/2011 at 18:29

I'm ill  Nasty cough that has hit my chest and won't go away. Seems like everyone has had it or got it. Normally passes me by but not this time.

I was so bad yesterday I couldn't even manage a glass of wine!!!!

Might try and do a gentle 5 miles in the morning - I'm climbing the walls....

Well done everyone else

05/01/2011 at 19:36
Always Aching wrote (see)

I was so bad yesterday I couldn't even manage a glass of wine!!!

 That is ill!

Minni - Your run on Sunday sounds lovely.

I'm fed up of running in the dark again already. Rainy and windy today too.

Did a 5 x 1km session yesterday and a couple of easy runs today and Monday. Last early morning run  of the week tomorrow, thank goodness!

05/01/2011 at 20:10
Yup, roll on spring, am waiting to trip over in the dark after 2 weeks of daytime running over the hols. Did 5 miles recovery tonight in the rain.
On a different not - does anyone use compression socks? Have bought a couple of pairs, worried about my shins with the increasing milage, way back when in my netball playing days i had bad shin splints. If you do wear compression socks, do you wear them on all your runs? Time for a big bowl of pasta!
05/01/2011 at 20:29
I wear Skins tights on all my runs and I have started wearing them after any long runs and quality sessions too. I'm not sure if it is making a difference but I have been able to increase my mileage without having any issues so I'm going to carry on. The only other time I did high mileage, my legs felt like lead weights for most of the time.
05/01/2011 at 22:06
Minni - no chance of a PB I'm afraid. I'm doing Ropsley Raid which is X country 13 miles of mud

Kiwirunner - I suffered loads from shin splints a few years ago. I tried everything. I cured it with a cocktail of regular sports massage, stretching (particularly calves, shins and ankles) and mixing up running surfaces. I do over half my miles off road. I also wear orthotics now.
05/01/2011 at 22:16
Thanks for your responses - i think i'll start wearing the comp socks regularly. Have been really careful to stretch well every day, no niggles yet, so hoping preventitive measures will work.
05/01/2011 at 22:58

AA sorry to hear you're too ill for wine.  That must be some cough.  You've been getting a good mileage in recently (didn't you do a 16 miler last week?) and its better to be ill now that in 6 weeks time.  There's lots going around.  I hope you shake it off soon.  I've had to get an inhaler for the first time in about 3 years to help with coughing immediately after running.

CG Sunday's run is one of my favourite routes.  Not too hilly with a mix of beach, track and a bit of road thrown in for good measure.  Are you following the garmin ready schedule or has it been custom made for you by your coach?  You seem to be doing well on it!  What is your plan for York?  Go out all guns blazing or stick to marathon pace?

Kiwi - compression socks.  I have them and do wear them when I can find them! I won a pair of Skins recovery tights on here last year and I wear those loads. Mainly after running (hence recovery), and in bed (!!!). But, I also wear them under other tights to keep my legs warm during this cold weather.  I've ordered another pair of running ones that should be here soon.   How are you enjoying the P & D book?  Someone on the 3.15 thread has made a spreadsheet for the plan.  Its mega and I've downloaded it onto my computer.  You can find it here hopefully.  If not go on the sub 3.15 thread and its the third post down on page 63.  Steve seems happy for others to use it.

Mr Spoons, CG Off road running.  Thanks to Dave for the comments debating time versus miles.  How do you two tackle off road running?  CG I noticed you have so many 20 mile runs and also 2 runs of 3.5 hours.  Will these be off -oad?  A running buddy has set out a 15 mile, hilly, off-road run for Sunday.  I'll give that a bash and see how long it takes etc.

My equal SuperSixer seems to be quiet.  There's lots of encouragement there for her and I'm hoping she'll get on target over the next few weeks. It'll be interesting to see what her coach tells her in relation to sessions and I'm hoping to pick up a few tips for myself.

My 5 mile recovery was as pleasent as it could be on a cold damp day.  Rest tomorrow I think, followed by a 10mile general aerobic on Friday.

Looking forward to the forum trip to Dubai for some hot weather training.  That was part of the deal right......?

Dubai Dave    pirate
06/01/2011 at 05:28

Your all welcome in Dubai for some warm weather training whenever you want, all you have to do is fly yourself here, book a hotel and I'll come and find you.

I wear compression calf guards when doing speedwork / racing, I find them more comfortable than socks, I also use compression tights for recovery but find that they seem to work better after a long ride than when running.

I was doing intervals last night 10 x 800M off 75 second recoveries and whilst I managed to hit the same times as a month ago they were harder work so the xmas lard is obviously having an effect. Must hide that gin bottle.  One day I'll go on the wagon for weeks before I race and see if it makes any difference, but as someone who races pretty well weekly from October to April that would require living a monastic life during the best period of weather here, so that isn't going to happen,

06/01/2011 at 12:27
Hi Minni - re: off road running: I still go by mileage not time, but I don't worry about speed. If a 20 miler ends up taking 4 hours because I'm trudging across muddy fields then so be it, it's all time on your feet. I then do tempo runs and intervals (mostly mile reps) when I get worried about speed. I do a few LSRs with, say, 15 miles off road, then the last 5 back on the road at marathon pace.
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