RW Forum Six - Sub 3:30

Hi Folks

Wobbled: no I don't include the 1 mile in set of intervals etc, I just run it. To be honest its just a confidence boost as I run my 1/2 marathons at that pace anyway.  Its a positive reinforcement of what your capable of and you cannot have too many positive mental  boosts along the way to a marathon. So much of running is in the mind particularly when your tired.

Pleased to hear that Kryptonite will be posting on her thread soon, I'm afraid that a certain degree of negativity is always present on these forums but generally the positive out weighs the negative. Anyway people are entitled to their opinion even if you don't agree with it.

Minni: You can get very into nutrition, in my club we have a professional sport nutritionist, she speaks much sense but sometimes life is for living. The one thing i have taken on board from her and my own reading is the idea of lots of small meals through the day rather than a large meal at night, seems to work.

No running for me today, just back from 70 miles on the bike. Friday / Saturday being the weekend here, racing a 8K tomorrow will be interested to see how much pace I've lost over xmas.

Morning all, just in from 8m recovery in freezing rain - nice!  Especially when my glasses get all waterlogged so I have to run without them - I've got quite poor vision without them and all I see are blobs of colour going past.  Very like LSD I imagine.

Yes, the other sixer thread is very odd at the minute - I imagine Kryptonite is keeping her head down - so would I with some of the discussion on there is as if she is a piece of meat.  I'm still not sure who is supposed to be mentoring her (is it Steve or someone else?) as they are very quiet too. All seems quite unfair & puts me off entering next year actually.  Hopefully Alison will be OK.

DD- the idea of lots of small meals through the day makes good sense, but I find that I quite enjoy the large meal in the evening, whether or not I've eaten during the day (usually not).  My 'reward' for runnnig as much as I do is that I allow myself to eat pretty much what I want, ie. tons of pasta, spag bol, etc  (in the quantities I want).   Having said that, it doesn't work when I'm not running, as I blow up like a balloon.

lake wrote (see)

Yes, the other sixer thread is very odd at the minute - I imagine Kryptonite is keeping her head down - so would I with some of the discussion on there is as if she is a piece of meat.  I'm still not sure who is supposed to be mentoring her (is it Steve or someone else?) as they are very quiet too. All seems quite unfair & puts me off entering next year actually.  Hopefully Alison will be OK.

I think its Steve but, you're right, there's not much to go on.   I hope she is getting a lot of support via emails etc. 

10.43 general aerobic for me this morning in, average 8.51.  Its mighty cold out there today and we have snow forecast for this evening again

Minni: I have just pulled my copy of P & D off the shelf, what week are we on?

Lake: I used to love my large evening meal right to a couple of months ago and indeed I still ocassionally indulge, but put simply your body doesn't need a large meal before its going to sleep.  There is a lot of stuff about nutrition in all the IM books I'm presently reading and it goes into quite a bit more depth than any of the running books I've read but there again not many runners go beyond a marathon or 3-5 hours of running, 10 -17 hours of intense effort is a different story. Indeed it was only when I worked out by trial and error a sensible and workable nutrition plan that I cracked the sub 9 hours at Comrades on my 4th attempt.

Still here with my bad chest and no running at all - the cough is awful and its affecting my energy levels - just hoping its not full blown flu. Have decided to not even think about running until after this weeked now.

Well done to everyone knocking out the miles in the freezing rain.

Nutrition - I really recommend Anita Bean - she knows her stuff, especially on sports nutrition.

I really didn't see any of the discussion on the other thread as negative. I feel it was opening up a much needed debate about the fact that the competition puts so much pressure on people to fit into certain time categories at a very early stage.

Personally, I am always interested in other peoples training especially when they are being mentored by someone as experienced as Steve and I would have liked to have heard a little more from Alison about how each session was going.

I set off straight from school today into a snow blizzard and it didn't stop at all for the 3 hours and 15 or so minutes that I was running. A very tough off road run today with some big climbs not made any easier by 2 inches of snow. Another 20 done though

I was very amused to be asked on a date by a postman on my last stretch as I waited to cross a road. I had wet hair plastered all over my face and was covered in snow!

Minni - I intend to do most of my long runs off road and not be concerned by pace. I will probably run 2 of my 20 milers on the road just to give me confidence that my legs will hold up.

hi all, it's the weekend, yippee!  Well done you guys who went running in the rain today, it's freezing out there.  My schedule said rest or cross train, I did a spin session, first one of the year, hoping it will be a good cross trainer to build thigh strength.   Does anyone else use spin as a cross trainer?

 AA - hope you are feeling better soon!  I know how frustrating it is when you are ill and can't get out to train.

 I shall be doing my long run tomorrow morning nice and early, before having a wisdom tooth pulled out, then probably spending the rest of the weekend on the couch.

 Happy training everyone

Dubai Dave wrote (see)

Minni: I have just pulled my copy of P & D off the shelf, what week are we on?

DD  We are on week 4, so if your book counts down, as mine does, I'll be starting week 13 on Monday.  I have a bit on a dilemma next week and the week after.   I have the chance to do a 12 mile fell race a week on Sunday (this will be at the end of week 13).  The schedule has a 16 mile run on that day with 10 at marathon pace.  Because of work committments I cannot fit in a 16 on any other day next week.  The following week I have a half marathon on the Sunday (the end of week 12).  That should be a 12 mile anyway.   Should I do a 16 that Sunday and give the fell race a miss, or could the fell race be as tough as a 16 mile road run.  I've got a 15 planned for this Sunday and could make that a bit longer.

Dubai Dave wrote (see)

Minni: I have just pulled my copy of P & D off the shelf, what week are we on?

Lake: I used to love my large evening meal right to a couple of months ago and indeed I still ocassionally indulge, but put simply your body doesn't need a large meal before its going to sleep.  There is a lot of stuff about nutrition in all the IM books I'm presently reading and it goes into quite a bit more depth than any of the running books I've read but there again not many runners go beyond a marathon or 3-5 hours of running, 10 -17 hours of intense effort is a different story. Indeed it was only when I worked out by trial and error a sensible and workable nutrition plan that I cracked the sub 9 hours at Comrades on my 4th attempt.

caterpillar girl wrote (see)

Minni - I intend to do most of my long runs off road and not be concerned by pace. I will probably run 2 of my 20 milers on the road just to give me confidence that my legs will hold up.

 AA wise not to push it if your chest is still bad.  I had to take my inhaler during the run today because the cold was really getting to me. 

CG 20 miles off road, in the snow, in 3:15 sounds really fast to me.  You must be really strong on the hills. The postman -  I remember at the end of the marathon a few years ago you looked perfect and I looked  a wreck!  I've still got one of the photos!

Kiwi - I spinned a bit last year.  I fainted after my first session - I should have rehydrated with water, not wine!  I find it a really hard workout.  I won't be doing it this year because the sessions don't fit into life.  What is your long run tomorrow?  Wise to do it before having your tooth extracted! 

 Lake I was lucky with my run this morning.  It was bright but cold (-8).  Freezeing rain is the worst. 

What's the weekly mileage everyone's doing at the moment? And what do you aim to go up to? 

Minni: I would do the fell race and the 1/2 marathon, the fell run will be tougher than 16 on the road and any race is likely to make you work harder than you would on your own so the intensity will be higher anyway. To my mind schedules are a guideline not cast in stone, as mentioned over on the "other" thread some schedules are so vague as to be virtually useless, what does brisk mean? Fortunately P & D don't fall into that category and they are a excellent guideline but there is no reason why you can't change them around a bit.

DD - 4 times doing comrades??  In 9 hours???  Wow, amazing.  I did a 52m ultra last year (in about 10.5 hrs) but Comrades must be amazing.  What other exotic races have you done?

Minni - you've got me looking at week 13 of P&D now, thinking whether I should tweak my schedule closer to that, although with less mileage as I'm not ready for that yet.   Hmmmm.

Just an easy 4m for me tonight, bringing me up to (a slow) 35m this week.

kiwi - hope the tooth came out alright....I had three taken out in one go by a very inept dentist who did such a poor job (with his pliers while the nurse held my head) he put stitches in the holes and sent me away.  Only to phone me at 8.30pm at home to ask if I was alright. 

Which 52m did you do Lake?   Which schedule are you following at the moment?  I'm sure you can easily move into the P&D.

DD 15 mile off road tomorrow, 12 mile fell race next weekend, half marathon the next.  Sorted. 

Is anyone using heart rate to train? I tried and liked looking at the data but couldn't find my max heart rate so it didn't make much sense! 

Morning

Minni: Sounds like a plan!

Lake: I've done two Oceans a couple of times, The Ridgeway 87mile ultra (well it was 93 for me I got lost!). As previously mentioned 4 Comrades but nothing else very exotic.  Comrades is quite simply teh greatest foot race in the world, where else do you get History, a great course, fantastic support, cut offs, diiferent grades of medals and 20,000 people running a 56 mile race? If there is one ultra you must do in your life Comrades is it. IMHO Boston is pretty well the best marathon in the world for lots of the same reasons.

Training by HR, I did try one season a few years ago, but got so bored keeping my heart rate down to a level that I gave up after 3 months. I do however run by HR sometimes in races as I know in marathons that if I get above 85% MHR I will struggle to maintain a pace. There are numerous web articles telling you how to find your MHR, but this way comes out the pretty much the same as my observed MHR

To determine your maximum heart rate you could use the following, which combines the Miller formula with the research from Londeree and Moeschberger.

• Use the Miller formula of MHR=217 - (0.85 × age) to calculate MHR
• Subtract 3 beats for elite athletes under 30
• Add 2 beats for 50 year old elite athletes
• Add 4 beats for 55+ year old elite athletes
• Use this MHR value for running training
• Subtract 3 beats for rowing training
• Subtract 5 beats for bicycle training

My off road run this morning was hard.  Biting wind and ice lower down then snow as we climbed.  16.1 miles with 3464ft of ascent, average pace 11.51 m/m.  I only managed to get the pace to that by adding a couple of road miles at the end!  The fastest mile was 9.08 and the slowest was 17.11 !!!

DD How do you train for your ultras?  Do you follow a set schedule?

Well done Minni that sounds like one tough run, thankfully Dubai is fairly flat!

Training for ultras, well like most experienced runners that I know I'm not big on schedules, I have a pretty good idea of what weekly mileage will get me ready for a distance, likewise I always include speed work, tempo and / or hills plus a long run. Though with Ultras its rather dependent on how long they are, I'm not good enough to race beyond 100K, so once I get onto the silly stuff its just miles / miles and miles with no speed work. For a short ultra like Two oceans its marathon training with a slightly longer long runs, for Comrades you get up to 40 mile long runs but still with some speed work.

When I do follow schedules is between multiple marathons as P & D have the only schedules I know of for 12/10/8/6 weeks between marathons and they ensure that I don't overdo it, of course their not much use once you get down to days between marathons.

Sounds like a good run Minni. Have you got anywhere flatter you can go later in the training so you can do the progressive runs?

Tough one for me today. 3 miles warm up (8:51), 2 miles steady state (8:19), 3 miles HM pace (7:20), 3 mins rec, 3 miles HM pace (7:23) 1 mile cool down (8:54).

Pleased enough with that and am thinking about setting off at 7:30/ 7:35 pace at Brass Monkey and seeing how that goes.

Hi Minni

I used HR when training using the P&D plan in the Autumn. I had to find my max by doing some intervals though as it's quite a bit higher than the age formulas would suggest.

I found it useful as it helped me slow down my long/easy runs as I'd been doing most of them too quickly, and consequently train more consistently with higher mileage. If you're able to get the effort level right without a HR monitor then there's probably less benefit.

CG: Nice structured run, a real confidence booster pre race for you. Go for it assuming that Brass Monkey isn't some sort of masochistic mud fest

BecsA: i think you are spot on with HR monitors making it so much easier to gauge the correct pace for LSR, I don't have the patience most of the time. Their also a great tool when racing if you are above 85% MHR in a marathon before 20 miles your probably going to slow down, doesn't really matter what you get to for the last six but I seem to creep up to 90 -92% MHR.