RW Forum Six - Sub 3:30

Minni v Dubai Dave

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07/01/2011 at 20:45
CG - well done on the 20 in the snow. I'm another fan of long runs off road.
07/01/2011 at 20:46
Dubai Dave wrote (see)

Minni: I have just pulled my copy of P & D off the shelf, what week are we on?

DD  We are on week 4, so if your book counts down, as mine does, I'll be starting week 13 on Monday.  I have a bit on a dilemma next week and the week after.   I have the chance to do a 12 mile fell race a week on Sunday (this will be at the end of week 13).  The schedule has a 16 mile run on that day with 10 at marathon pace.  Because of work committments I cannot fit in a 16 on any other day next week.  The following week I have a half marathon on the Sunday (the end of week 12).  That should be a 12 mile anyway.   Should I do a 16 that Sunday and give the fell race a miss, or could the fell race be as tough as a 16 mile road run.  I've got a 15 planned for this Sunday and could make that a bit longer.

Dubai Dave wrote (see)

Minni: I have just pulled my copy of P & D off the shelf, what week are we on?

Lake: I used to love my large evening meal right to a couple of months ago and indeed I still ocassionally indulge, but put simply your body doesn't need a large meal before its going to sleep.  There is a lot of stuff about nutrition in all the IM books I'm presently reading and it goes into quite a bit more depth than any of the running books I've read but there again not many runners go beyond a marathon or 3-5 hours of running, 10 -17 hours of intense effort is a different story. Indeed it was only when I worked out by trial and error a sensible and workable nutrition plan that I cracked the sub 9 hours at Comrades on my 4th attempt.

caterpillar girl wrote (see)
Minni - I intend to do most of my long runs off road and not be concerned by pace. I will probably run 2 of my 20 milers on the road just to give me confidence that my legs will hold up.
 So you stick to the mileage.  You're a good advert for off road training with your good race times.

 AA wise not to push it if your chest is still bad.  I had to take my inhaler during the run today because the cold was really getting to me. 

CG 20 miles off road, in the snow, in 3:15 sounds really fast to me.  You must be really strong on the hills. The postman -  I remember at the end of the marathon a few years ago you looked perfect and I looked  a wreck!  I've still got one of the photos!

Kiwi - I spinned a bit last year.  I fainted after my first session - I should have rehydrated with water, not wine!  I find it a really hard workout.  I won't be doing it this year because the sessions don't fit into life.  What is your long run tomorrow?  Wise to do it before having your tooth extracted! 

 Lake I was lucky with my run this morning.  It was bright but cold (-8).  Freezeing rain is the worst. 

What's the weekly mileage everyone's doing at the moment? And what do you aim to go up to? 

Dubai Dave    pirate
08/01/2011 at 06:30

Minni: I would do the fell race and the 1/2 marathon, the fell run will be tougher than 16 on the road and any race is likely to make you work harder than you would on your own so the intensity will be higher anyway. To my mind schedules are a guideline not cast in stone, as mentioned over on the "other" thread some schedules are so vague as to be virtually useless, what does brisk mean? Fortunately P & D don't fall into that category and they are a excellent guideline but there is no reason why you can't change them around a bit.

08/01/2011 at 19:30

DD - 4 times doing comrades??  In 9 hours???  Wow, amazing.  I did a 52m ultra last year (in about 10.5 hrs) but Comrades must be amazing.  What other exotic races have you done?

Minni - you've got me looking at week 13 of P&D now, thinking whether I should tweak my schedule closer to that, although with less mileage as I'm not ready for that yet.   Hmmmm.

Just an easy 4m for me tonight, bringing me up to (a slow) 35m this week.

kiwi - hope the tooth came out alright....I had three taken out in one go by a very inept dentist who did such a poor job (with his pliers while the nurse held my head) he put stitches in the holes and sent me away.  Only to phone me at 8.30pm at home to ask if I was alright. 

08/01/2011 at 21:00

Which 52m did you do Lake?   Which schedule are you following at the moment?  I'm sure you can easily move into the P&D.

DD 15 mile off road tomorrow, 12 mile fell race next weekend, half marathon the next.  Sorted. 

Is anyone using heart rate to train? I tried and liked looking at the data but couldn't find my max heart rate so it didn't make much sense! 

08/01/2011 at 21:51
Managed a wet + windy 13 miles at 9:07 m/m early this morn, so far shins are fine with the compression sox. Only managed 30 miles this week, as no exercise for me tomorrow.

Lake - your dental experience sounds like a right nightmare! Thankfully i only had the 1 tooth taken out, he had to give me 4 injections, they were horrible! No stiches tho, drugged up now, so not painful at the mo!

I'm with you, going to gradually add the extra miles from P&D to my runner's world schedule, i especially like their progressive marathon pace long runs - not really tried these before, hoping they'll make a difference!

Minni - i was worried i'd have heavy legs after spin last night, but they were out. I've never used a heart rate monitor, too technical for me!
Dubai Dave    pirate
09/01/2011 at 04:53


Minni: Sounds like a plan!

Lake: I've done two Oceans a couple of times, The Ridgeway 87mile ultra (well it was 93 for me I got lost!). As previously mentioned 4 Comrades but nothing else very exotic.  Comrades is quite simply teh greatest foot race in the world, where else do you get History, a great course, fantastic support, cut offs, diiferent grades of medals and 20,000 people running a 56 mile race? If there is one ultra you must do in your life Comrades is it. IMHO Boston is pretty well the best marathon in the world for lots of the same reasons.

Training by HR, I did try one season a few years ago, but got so bored keeping my heart rate down to a level that I gave up after 3 months. I do however run by HR sometimes in races as I know in marathons that if I get above 85% MHR I will struggle to maintain a pace. There are numerous web articles telling you how to find your MHR, but this way comes out the pretty much the same as my observed MHR

To determine your maximum heart rate you could use the following, which combines the Miller formula with the research from Londeree and Moeschberger.

  • Use the Miller formula of MHR=217 - (0.85 × age) to calculate MHR
  • Subtract 3 beats for elite athletes under 30
  • Add 2 beats for 50 year old elite athletes
  • Add 4 beats for 55+ year old elite athletes
  • Use this MHR value for running training
  • Subtract 3 beats for rowing training
  • Subtract 5 beats for bicycle training
09/01/2011 at 13:34

My off road run this morning was hard.  Biting wind and ice lower down then snow as we climbed.  16.1 miles with 3464ft of ascent, average pace 11.51 m/m.  I only managed to get the pace to that by adding a couple of road miles at the end!  The fastest mile was 9.08 and the slowest was 17.11 !!!

DD How do you train for your ultras?  Do you follow a set schedule?

Dubai Dave    pirate
09/01/2011 at 14:44

Well done Minni that sounds like one tough run, thankfully Dubai is fairly flat!

Training for ultras, well like most experienced runners that I know I'm not big on schedules, I have a pretty good idea of what weekly mileage will get me ready for a distance, likewise I always include speed work, tempo and / or hills plus a long run. Though with Ultras its rather dependent on how long they are, I'm not good enough to race beyond 100K, so once I get onto the silly stuff its just miles / miles and miles with no speed work. For a short ultra like Two oceans its marathon training with a slightly longer long runs, for Comrades you get up to 40 mile long runs but still with some speed work.

When I do follow schedules is between multiple marathons as P & D have the only schedules I know of for 12/10/8/6 weeks between marathons and they ensure that I don't overdo it, of course their not much use once you get down to days between marathons.

09/01/2011 at 14:58

Sounds like a good run Minni. Have you got anywhere flatter you can go later in the training so you can do the progressive runs?

Tough one for me today. 3 miles warm up (8:51), 2 miles steady state (8:19), 3 miles HM pace (7:20), 3 mins rec, 3 miles HM pace (7:23) 1 mile cool down (8:54).

Pleased enough with that and am thinking about setting off at 7:30/ 7:35 pace at Brass Monkey and seeing how that goes.

09/01/2011 at 15:49
Sounds tough CG. How long is Brass Monkey?

16.5 slooow for me today.
09/01/2011 at 17:00

Hi Minni

I used HR when training using the P&D plan in the Autumn. I had to find my max by doing some intervals though as it's quite a bit higher than the age formulas would suggest.

I found it useful as it helped me slow down my long/easy runs as I'd been doing most of them too quickly, and consequently train more consistently with higher mileage. If you're able to get the effort level right without a HR monitor then there's probably less benefit.

Edited: 09/01/2011 at 17:00
Dubai Dave    pirate
09/01/2011 at 17:31

CG: Nice structured run, a real confidence booster pre race for you. Go for it assuming that Brass Monkey isn't some sort of masochistic mud fest

BecsA: i think you are spot on with HR monitors making it so much easier to gauge the correct pace for LSR, I don't have the patience most of the time. Their also a great tool when racing if you are above 85% MHR in a marathon before 20 miles your probably going to slow down, doesn't really matter what you get to for the last six but I seem to creep up to 90 -92% MHR.

09/01/2011 at 18:08

DD-  the ultra I did was  just a local 'Kent Challenge' one, but very enjoyable.  I can only aspire to do something like Comrades in the future.

Minni - I'm just using a combination of the RW schedule, plus what's worked for me in the past (i.e. made it up), but I think i'll include some influences from P&D just because it all seems to make sense, even if I can't get the speeds yet.

I've used HR training in the past, more to slow down my long runs than anything else.  Like others, I got bored of wearing the strap and the variation in the heart rate..but I still dust it off every so often.  I got my max from  a 10k I did (189bpm) and have never got close to it since.  Shame.

!5m LSR for me this morning, found it quite tough....a combination of eating too late last night (after 9pm) and not enough fuel this morning (always used to have porridge, but the cupboard was bare apart from Shreddies).  Lesson learnt, must try harder.

09/01/2011 at 19:20

Well done everyone on your LSRs this weekend.

 A big fat zero miles run all week for me . Going to try and have a run on my treadmill tomorrow and see how my chest bears up. The cough is just awful though and am thinking a trip tp the doctors may be on the cards soon

09/01/2011 at 21:13
Get well soon AA
09/01/2011 at 21:14
BecsA wrote (see)

Hi Minni

I used HR when training using the P&D plan in the Autumn. I had to find my max by doing some intervals though as it's quite a bit higher than the age formulas would suggest.

I found it useful as it helped me slow down my long/easy runs as I'd been doing most of them too quickly, and consequently train more consistently with higher mileage. If you're able to get the effort level right without a HR monitor then there's probably less benefit.

Hi BecsA!  BecsA and others - I've tried to sort my HR out so I could use it for this training but I just could't find my max. By formulas is seems it should be around 179 however, when I tried I could only get it to about 172 at the most.  But, quite a few times my data would show at the end of a run that I had hit up to 194 during a session.  These were usually achieved when I was running a particularly fast bit of a training run.  I doubt whether these were correct readings and just got fed up trying!  My average HR for my recent marathon was 157 with the mas being 168 reached in the final full mile. 

AA I hope you feel better soon.  A trip to the Dr might be worth it...?

 I'm posting a couple of photos from my run this morning....

On the top of a hill fort.

Descending off one hill before climbing up another.  Just before the blizzard started....

09/01/2011 at 21:15
Mr Spoons,  That is the third time you've posted while I've been typing!  We must have our computer shifts at the same time!
09/01/2011 at 21:28
Hi Minni, I guess so!

Great pics Where were you?

And why is he wearing shorts ?!!!
09/01/2011 at 21:31
This is my back garden, Cheviot hills, Northumberland.  He always wears shorts - insane!
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