RW Forum SIx – 3.30 – 4.00

Carterusm with Spoons

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06/10/2013 at 17:36

Hi Carl, Good running. Take the positives out of todays run and concentrate on your 20 miler next week. Looks like you are in a better place than you actually think ;0)

Hi Ricky, You have had a really good run of training up to your marathon and I think you are reading and taking notice of what your body is telling you. If it is any use to you, I have had a look back on my training sessions up to Edinburgh earlier this year as I was in the same position as you. I had ran plenty of 20 & 22 milers and I think the body was fed up! I ran a 20 this week of the training and then a 16 and 10 the following weeks. I felt it did me good especially dropping down to 10 the week before, which was a nice 8 min/mile paced run along the canal.

Hi Big_G, have you been putting in hills on to your runs in preparation for the marathon?

06/10/2013 at 17:50

I ran a 20 miler today and used it as a bit of a tester, aiming to run between 8:00-8:15 min/miles to see how I got on. I ended up running the 20 in 2:23, with the Garmin reporting average pace of 8:06 min/miles The run felt good, I have cut out the run on the Saturday morning and run on the Friday morning instead. I find that gives me time to recover before the long run. Last 2 miles were up hill with a bit of trail this was to test me at that stage of the run, which was fine. I slowed down on the pace here but I am trying not to burn myself out. Plus I had two dogs to deal with who decided that they were not too keen on me! Never have this trouble early in the morning during the week....

I am in the same place as Carl, where I have only been on a 12 week plan and do get the feeling that I have missed out on elements of training. In the last 5 weeks I have ran an 18, 0 (disaster week), 18, 20, 20 miler LSR with the last 2 runs feeling good. I feel like I am actually getting back into things. I have not run the same amount of miles in the week as I did on the last plan, but oddly I feel it may be doing me good on the LSR as I have a bit more life in the legs.

Next week I will go for 18-20 miles and then will come down to 10-12 the week before the run. I hope the weather stays mild  

06/10/2013 at 20:39

Ricky - seems to me that you are a little fatigues and that the 'ol body needs a little recovery time. Start you taper, bring the LSR's down and suggest you run 10 miles for your LSR the week before. Concentrate on keeping the shorter faster stuff midweek and you will reach teh start line in Dublin as fit as a fiddle and ready to set a new PB.

Nell - That is a seriously fast 20 mile run. You seem to be in a great place both from a pace point of view and mentally. As you say missing some runs might actually do you some good as you have got some good miles in and seem to be fresher than earlier this year.

Big_G - I think you will surprise yourself in a few weeks time. You club sessions have ben hard and fast. You nailed a great 5k time. Just get your pacing right and you will easily get sub 4.

I am pleased with today's run. I did not set out to really go for it from the minute I started as there were just too many people to get past. I mentally set myself a target of 1:45 and wanted to run a fairly even pace at just sub 8 min miling.

So despite the stomach cramp at 10 miles (probably from getting my fuelling wrong during the race) I more or less nailed this.

I am taking the positives from it. I demonstrated to myself that I can control my pace. If I do something like this in Dublin I should be coming home aroun 3:45 which would be a big PB for me.

With not as much training as is ideal, it would be unwise to aim for anything much faster. If I do, I could easily blow up from putting too much pressure on.

So I am clear on my race strategy.

Just need to get one more decent LSR in. So this week I will get some fast stuff in whilst away and do a 20 miler next Saturday. That will allow me 2 weeks taper which I hope will give me the recobvery time needed.

06/10/2013 at 21:20

Nell & Ali - thanks for that you have both confirmed that its time to taper! Nell great pacey 20 miler looks like you are nicely set for 3.30 - the fact that you were comfortable at that pace with plenty in the tank has to be a great confidence booster for you?

Ali - I'm following the P&D 55 mile p/week plan with some tweaks. So, no, 6 x 20 milers aren't in this plan - I think there was only 2 or 3 which made me uneasy. The lack of speedwork in the plan also didn't sit well with me so I replaced one of the weekly recovery runs with a speed session at the club each week.

Carl - you will be privileged to meet the white Kenyan in Dublin. He only committed his entry on the last day (1st Oct) as he pulled his calf on a interval session with me a couple of weeks ago and had over a week with no running. Like you his training hasn't been ideal - his longest run has been his two HM's @ Waterside & GNR yet he is targeting 3:30! He is sharing a room with me so hopefully you will join us for the pre-race evening meal ..... that reminds me I must (a) email hotel requesting a quiet room (b) investigate where to eat on the sun evening. 

07/10/2013 at 08:24

Nell, yes I've been getting some hills in.

This is a fairly typical LSR profile.

http://s4.runnersworld.co.uk/members/images/465898/gallery/hill01_-_typical.jpg?width=350

 ...and this is a fairly typical recovery-type run so although there is a lot of flat, there are still a couple of hills thrown in.

http://s3.runnersworld.co.uk/members/images/465898/gallery/hill02_-_recovery_0.jpg?width=350

The Wednesday interval session at the Club varies from week to week but this is what I did last Wednesday.  After jogging from the club meeting point, it was a lampost shuttle run in teams of 3 where you run hard on the efforts.  This was tough; I still felt it in my legs 3 days later!  It was good fun though!

http://s3.runnersworld.co.uk/members/images/465898/gallery/hill03_-_shuttles_0.jpg?width=350

I do find though that I what I lose on the uphill sections I don't gain back on the downhills.  For example on the steep bits I may be down at 11/12/13min/mile going up, but I never make that back on the way down.

The 5K I did yesterday was pretty much as flat as I can get.  The 5K effort was from just after the end of the 2nd mile.

http://s4.runnersworld.co.uk/members/images/465898/gallery/5k_profile.jpg?width=350

I am even debating walking the big hill that is in the marathon (I get to enjoy it twice) to keep me fresher for the rest of it.  I'm not sure yet.

07/10/2013 at 14:27

Hi Big_G, You seem to have a good mix on your runs so hopefully you will be appropriately conditioned. I do also find that I do not make up a lot of speed downhill. When I run downhill I keep the cadence high to keep my feet underneath me (back to the ITB issues!) so that in turn means I do not power down the hills. What it does do though is preserve my energy and not hammer my quads. I found that back in August on the HM, a lot of the guys were leaving me on the downhill section only for me to catch them up on the uphill. I took this as a great confidence boost on the run and going forward on other runs...

Hi Ricky, Yes I think you know your body and you have plenty of good runs behind you to start the taper now I would have thought.

Hi Carl/Ricky, yes it was a fast LSR, but I wanted to test my fitness levels and thought 4 weeks before the race would be ok to do this. I had some doubts in my mind as with the way work has been I have had some not so enjoyable sessions where I was pushing and grinding them out also I don'yt feel I have put in the appropriate miles.. The last two LSR have felt a lot better. I think having a good rest on the Saturday has done me well. I was contemplating a 18-20 miler next week, but a friend who is a sub 3 hr has advised a fast 13 miler. I am swithering between the two now. One, I think the fast run would be good for fitness level and Two, the LSR for my endurance levels. I have only ran the two 20 milers I may chin the physio on this later, but she is a speed merchant so I think  know what she would tend to lean towards....

07/10/2013 at 17:18

G you may find that during training you can't make up pace you lose on the uphill, but in a race you will. In the run up to LN I did contemplate similar to you tackling the 'big hill' very slowly, I thought about walking parts...  Then on the day, the adrenaline and the competitiveness in me just kept me going, I didn't even do a single mile approaching 10/mile pace despite the fact I never would have managed a hill like that as fast in training. Go with the flow on the day.

Carl- yes you paced really well in your HM! Key for success on marathon day.

Nell- you're running v well. Look forward to hearing about your Marathon!

today I did almost 6 miles in 55 minutes, easy pace but tough run, hilly. Enjoyed it though. I decided to jump into week 5 of a RW 10 week HM plan before my half in November. 

I got new shoes (saucony kinvaras) and wore them out for the first time. I've not worn anything but NB for a while but I like the feel of these so far. Plus they are bright yellow- can't be a bad thing.

07/10/2013 at 21:35

HI Ali, I use the Kinvara 3's. Love them and on my third pair. I can still get the 3's for 47.50 so refuse to move to the 4's just yet 

07/10/2013 at 22:09

Where do you get them just incase I fancy snapping up some of the 3s?  Presuming wherever you get them has ladies...

I had a 15% off Run4it voucher (you know the ones they give out at loads of races) from Loch Ness so I decided to treat myself at the shop in Aberdeen.

08/10/2013 at 08:21

Morning all.

Carl – well done on the parkrun and the half marathon result. I still think you have plenty of miles in the bank from this year to get you around Dublin in a decent time. Have you been keeping up the LT runs too ?

Ali – good to hear you are recovering nicely from LN. What is your current PB for HM and what time are you aiming for in November ?

Ricky – 6 x 20+ runs in your training for Dublin is good going but time to start taking it easy and getting yourself to the start line in perfect condition. The pace sessions at the club seemed to have helped to so I too am expecting a new PB at Dublin; I’m going for 3:28 for you to come in ahead of the big Kenyan !

Nell – I think a 12 week plan should suffice for an experienced runner like yourself. As you say, a reduced mileage on this plan might do you more good and be at the starting line feeling fairly fresh. Which marathon are you running and is it a PB opportunity ?

08/10/2013 at 08:25

Another decent week for me last week with a total of 28 miles that included 2 x 8 milers too. The knee seems to be baring up at the moment too despite me slipping with my stretches/exercises somewhat. I've been taking the mutt out for some long walks too which is helping strengthen the knee as they have been quite hilly. My new bike has been ordered and I should take delivery of it later this week. I then need to come up with a plan that wont upset Mrs C but ensures I can get plenty of running and cycling in. The plan this week is to get up to 30 miles and I've got a couple of days off so will be venturing into the peaks for a couple of hilly runs and rides. 

08/10/2013 at 14:40

Hi Ali, you can get them on Sportsshoes and startfitness websites. I think the 15% voucher for Run4it should just about take you to the normal retail price!

Hi Carter, You're weekly mileage is not far behind me at the moment! I think I might have preferred a 16 week plan, I will reserve judgement until after the marathon. The marathon is The Castles Marathon (Alnwick to Bamburgh) and it is the first year of it. I do not think it will be a PB marathon....It will be a busy weekend, on the Saturday my son has a judo competition in Larkhall my wife is off to that, and I will be taking my daughter and pals up to Grangemouth for a cross country relay, we then meet up back at Edinburgh later and then down to Alnmouth for the night...then next morning accross to Alnwick for the marathon!

 

08/10/2013 at 20:04

Carter 28 miles is v respectable! Good job.

current HM PB is 1:48 and I'd live to see 1:47:xx on my watch come Fraserburgh in November!

08/10/2013 at 20:04

Sorry... 'Love' to see not ' live'

08/10/2013 at 22:41

Carter - your weekly mileage is creeping up nicely. Looks like you are mastering the art of running with a nagging weakness. Must be great to be running that weekly mileage and have no pressure to stick to a schedule.

You are right. The miles are there overall. Have just not hit the level I wanted to be at for Dublin. When I think back to my HM in the spring, I was training hard and enjoying it even though it was freezing cold and windy. On HM day it was one of the coldest days I have ever run and it was a hilly course on a bleak day. I felt really strong and sailed it.

Sunday was a recent time on an easier course but a crowded course. Circa 16000 runners versus a few hundred. But it was not easier and intuitively it should have been.

So I agree I should be to get round OK. As long as I keep it steady then sub 3:45 is achievable. This is a decent time but I feel that I am capable of faster just not this time.

Only had time for 6 miles in the gym at 6am today. In Toronto. First mile warm up, next 4 miles at 7:03 main/mile pace on an  incline setting. 

I will probably do the same tomorrow and am back home Thursfdsy morning so will try and get a MLR in Thursday night.

Planning on doing the park run again on Saturday and then my last 20 miler on Sunday.

09/10/2013 at 12:18

Just gone 7am here in Toronto and running is done for the day. Really strange. When back home I cannot get up early and go out running but when herre I can.

Woke at 4.30 and could not get back to sleep. Got up and spent about an hour clearing out emails from London.

Headed to the gym. It was packed. It is not hugh  and HSS only 4 treddies.

1 mile warm up and 1 mile cool down with 6 miles at 7:30 main/mile pace.

Good workout. Only problem is that calf is a little tighterr adterr the session than I would like. 

Trust everyone is having a great day.

09/10/2013 at 14:52

In a kind of reluctant way, I find myself looking again at P&D....  I know I haven't got this marathon out of the way yet, but I'm looking ahead to next Spring.  I'm again looking at the 18-week 55-mile plan and think I should be able to start it in reasonable shape mileage-wise.

P&D is quite technical (I'm quite a simple soul at heart....) but I have come up with the below based on my current Half marathon time (1hr42) with a view of getting into the sub-4 category next Spring.  How does this look regarding paces?

Long/Medium Long runs-  10:21 to 10:48min/mile.  This is based on 15-20% slower than MP).

Marathon Pace runs.  9min/mile.

General Aerobic runs-  10:21 to 11:15min/mile (15-25% slower than MP).  11:15 is slow, even for me.

Lactate Threshold - 8min/mile.  P&D says between 15K and Half pace.  I've never ran a 15K but 8min/mile is 1hr45 for a Half.  My PB is 1hr42 on a fair course.  P&D say that people on this training plan should be at the slower end of the range for these LT sessions so I came up with 8min/miles.

VO2 max -  7min/mile.  This is very slightly slower than my 5K average PB on a flat course and looking at the schedules, the VO2 max sessions are interval sessions where I think I could do this pace (or slightly quicker for the shorter intervals).

Recovery - P&D doesn't really specify the recovery pace, although it says it should be the slowest session of the week.  Slower than the 11:15 GA pace seems very slow though....

I do these paces anyway in various sessions, with the exception of the GA run which is slower than what I would do currently.  However, it's the mileage increase that is a concern for me in terms of tiredness.  The most I've done for this marathon is 45 miles in a week but I've done several high 30s and a couple of low 40s.

The other big difference compared to what I do now is the amount of miles at Marathon Pace that are in the Medium/Long runs, but I can definitely see how this would improve my chances of getting the sub-4.  I think if I can do these it will be a confidence booster, if nothing else.

Sub-4 should be within my grasp based on my Half PB (probably not in October though).  Some predicors even say 3:45 but I'm well off that currently with my PB currently at 4hr08.

Any thoughts on the above?  Too conservative?  Too fast?

09/10/2013 at 17:40

Well G I'm not an expert so I'm not going to comment on your different paces really as I don't know anything about P&D or much else tbh.

the only thing I will venture to say is I cant imagine ever running at slower than 11:15 (your recovery) pace... And I'm a slower runner than you by far! I follow with interest for what wiser people come along and say in comment 

Great treadmill dedication Carl! Haven't done anything longer than 30 mins on the treaty for a few months now.

 

09/10/2013 at 21:33

Big_g - I'm certainly not wise but happy to offer my opinion. 

I think your long runs are too slow, I would say 10:00-10:30 would be more suitable. This time last year I ran my first half at 1:45 so we are in a similar ballpark. I know it's different for people but I guess at our standard a lot of this stuff is guesswork anyway. If I were you I would start building up the mileage after your autumn marathon and until the end of the year. Run these all at the LSR pace I suggested above, if it was me I wouldn't do any speedwork during this period, this is all about building your mileage. By the end of the year you could be running 40-45 miles per week, don't forget your easy weeks. Bear in mind that with P&D you peak at 55 so doing 45 per week you won't be that far off. In my view, P&D is for experienced runners and I found it tough going when I started. There are lactate threshold runs, VO2 runs and marathon paced runs. I found it too intense and think it contributed to my injury. I would say for the first half of your spring plan to only run one speed session per week (I include marathon paced runs in that) and slowly increase it for the second half of the plan. I am also one for going for it, rather than being conservative, and based on some of the details of your runs you have given us, I would aim for 3:45 (if you're prepared to take the chance of blowing up completely that is). To summarise, I reckon more slow miles and build up the speed sessions slowly and do your marathon paced runs in the second half of the plan. And do 5 x 20 milers rather than the 2/3 /forum/smilies/tongue_out_smiley.gif@d]p@d suggest. That's something like what I will be doing for mine anyway 

10/10/2013 at 08:28

Carter - thanks for the feedback.  You've mentioned something that does concern me about P&D; I keep half an eye on a P&D thread on here and there seems a relatively large injury list which does worry me.

I think you're right about the LSR pace being too slow.  I just looked back over the last few weeks and most of mine currently are between 10 and 10:30 so I'd probably go with that.  When I do an LSR with the club, it tends to be quicker than this and ends up being more like a MP session anyway but I don't do those as often as I'd like due to time constraints.

I also hear what you're saying about dropping the speed/interval sessions up to Xmas.  The thing is, the speed/intervals are probably my favourite sessions and the one session I try and attend every week with the club.  I would be reluctant to let those go as I do enjoy them and the banter with the club mates, but would consider it if needed.

I also noticed there doesn't seem to be many 20 milers in P&D which was a surprise. 

There's so much to consider, but I think if I'm serious the key for me is to up the mileage gradually/safely for my next marathon which is why I looked again at the 55-mile plan.  I'm wondering whether to edit the plan and base it around the weekly mileage for the 18-weeks, but move things around a bit as you've described to a) help avoid injury b) get more longer runs in and c) introduce some MP sessions if possible.

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