RW Forum SIx – 3.30 – 4.00

Carterusm with Spoons

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11/02/2013 at 18:26

Hi all,

It sounds that we have all been busy bees apart from yours truly. Congrats all around for a few sterling performances over the last week, I have been in hiding recovering from a sprained ankle following an unannounced rugby match with my dog  but after two incredibly frustrating weeks of moping, mumbling and as my other half so eloquently put it "arsing around the house stumbling over ya bottom lip" (Quite the poet Mrs Eyes) tomorrow morning I am back at it and CAN'T WAIT!!!!!

I have never been so disciplined when recovering from an injury and I hope to reap the benefits.  So first thing tomorrow I am off out on an "exploratory" run to gauge where I am at and back on here bothering you all with question after question no doubt. My theory is to aim for about 5 or 6 miles at a steady pace, clear out the lungs and wake everything up again, all being well I can just resume my training programme, amended with the help of you fine people naturally.

41 years old and I feel like sleeping in my running gear.... pathethic isn't it?

Still the dog will be pleased, I can stop glaring at him

11/02/2013 at 19:34

Hi all

Sorry for the late entry to the forum, I need some help with my training plan!  I am following the RW ultimate marathon schedule sub 3.45.  Is anyone else following this that could poss help me?

Thanks in advance!!

11/02/2013 at 21:35
Hi Dobster - I started off following Hal Higdon but have tweaked it based on my lifestyle and taken into account advice and guidance from Spoons. It seems that most plans are just a guide and will be altered slightly for each individual.

So how can we help you ?
11/02/2013 at 21:41
Hi Hannah - if you want to message me your email address I will send you my training plan and you can have a look at it and maybe get some ideas. Obviously we are all here to help wherever we can and Spoons has much experience in running and training plans as you know. My training plan covers 5 days of training so I'm not sure which session you would be best leaving out to take into account you will be training for 4 days. Spoons ?
11/02/2013 at 21:43
Oirish - good luck with your run tomorrow. How does mrs eyes find getting into bed with you wearing lycra ???
11/02/2013 at 21:54

Carterusm - Thanks for the reply!  Sometimes my mileage doesn;t sseem to add up.  For example tomorrow morning my training plan has me running the following:

6M of 1M jog then 8 x 2 mins up hill, jog back.  Then 1M jog at end of session.  Does that mean I need to find a hill that is the exact distance to allow those jogs up and down to equal 4M? What if takes me less time or more to get up the hill?  I'm not sure what my main aim is here.  Should my priority be to reach 6M or just to get those sprints in?

Also I run 5 times a week and play netball once a week leaving me one rest day.  Is this ok or should I be doubling up on run days by adding a bit of a cycle or a swim?

And my final question - I seem to go too quick on my slow runs but not quick enough on the fast ones.  Should I be trying to slow myself down so my body can recover on my slow runs?

Sorry for all the questions!!!

11/02/2013 at 22:33

Good to see you back at it Oirish ! Very wise giving the ankle plenty of rest.

Hannah my understanding is a recovery run is the day after the LSR - usually replacing a rest day. I did a slow 3ml recovery run on the treadmill this evening ... never done one of these before having always preferred to take a rest day after LSR so kind of an experiment for me. Will see how I feel in comparison tomorrow when back into the first speed session of the week.

Welcome Dobster! You are doing plenty of running but would hazard a guess that doing it all without a great variation of pace will cause you to "plateau" and be frustrated by lack of progress/improvement in pace. I think you need to mix it up more - dedicate 1 or 2 speed sessions each week (maybe a hard tempo run & a hill session or intervals) and then do the Long Run slower than feels natural - coversational pace. However it is the slow running that we all struggle with but is the key run of the week. I keep reading "to run fast - first you must run slow!" From my limited experience it does seem to work!  Yes you are right - if LSRs are too fast you will be too fatigued to have effective speed sessions... and you will also increase the risk of injury.
If anything you could drop one of the run sessions focusing on 4 higher quality runs (tempo, hills, intervals & LSR) and replacing the 5th with some cross training such as cycling or a swim. Definitely wouldn't add cross traing ON TOP of your already busy schedule. You'll be too tired to have quality sessions & won't enjoy them.

However I am no expert - Spoons will be along shortly!

Edited: 11/02/2013 at 22:40
11/02/2013 at 23:52

Dobster - welcome to this busy and informative discussion. Most of us on here came had a plan that was loosely based on some other plan and we have since adjusted it with input from Spoons and hearing about others training plans.

Like Carter I started with a plan loosely based on Hal Higdon but geared towards my busy work and family life. That said I have got up to 5 days a week from the 3 days a week I was doing in December.

Some questions for you and some thoughts on your questions.

You are obviously targeting a sub 3:45. But what marathon and how far are you into your training ?

5 sessions a week (running) seems about right but what mix of speed / interval / MLR's and LSR's are you doing ?

Your slow runs should be slow until you get within striking distance of your race and then you probably need to incorporate some MP miles into them. Slow on this thread is meant to be 10:00 min/mile. Not that we all do that !!!

The pace of your speed sessions will deepend on what they are and how long you run. So tempo runs should be 7:00 to 7:45 min / mile and intervals faster than that.

I do not do specific hill sessions but incorporate a steep hill into my MLR and LSR (same hill about 1 mile long).

I have always shied away from plans that are complicated. I like simple instructions. So I cannot help you on how to interpret your hill session. Spoons would be better at that than me.

The key is mixing the sessions up and not running as afst as you can every time.

Other activities are not necessarily a bad thing (I don't do anything else as I would not have a life if I tried) but doing too much can lead to fatigue and this will mean poor quality running and crap miles don't help with endurance which can lead to bonking in the marathon.

Do stick around as everyone on here must have learnt something as generally we have all improved from where we were when we started.

11/02/2013 at 23:56

Oirish - Good to see you back on here and best of luck with the run tomorrow. Happy to help whatever way we can.

12/02/2013 at 00:12

Hannah - both Carter and I are following very similar plans and probably aiming for very similar times, circa 3:45.

We probably started proper training about the same time but my marathon comes first on 7/4 and Carters is on 28/4. London is on 21/4 so depending on where you are inbuilding up your LSR's to 20 miles there is probably enough time to get sufficient quality runs under your belt.

I would realx about your specific target now and take some of the pressure off yourself. Once you have this weekends HM complete I would focus on getting 4 quality runs in every week; tempo / hill, MLR and interval / hill session  and a LSR. The trick here is to mix these up a bit so that the body does not get used to doing the same thing week in week out.

Spoons will say that running on tired legs is good but there is a fine line from tired legs to fatigue.

I would use the HM in March as a better guide of what you are capable of in the actual marathon.

As time goes on you will need to introduce some MP miles into your various sessions to get used to running the pace you expect to run in the marathon. This will be the real indicator of what you can do.

Keep asking us questions as this is what Carter, Ricky and I have been doing for some time. We are learnt much from being on here and are happy to share our experiences and limited knowledge (compared to Spoons who is an expert) with all who ask.

12/02/2013 at 00:21

Carter - you doing a tempo run tomorrow night ? and if so how far you going to push it this week ?

I am hoping the track will be open (snow seems to be melting here).

I am going to focus on running for longer which probably means running a little slower. Last week I ran this at 7:30 min/mile and I was not best pleased with, having gone much faster previously, but maybe it is better to run a little slower (funny saying that 7:30 for 4 miles is slow) thereby going longer. I am going to try anf get this up to 60 mins before I taper.

Thoughts ?

Edited: 12/02/2013 at 00:22
12/02/2013 at 05:33
Morning Carl - my calfs are still tight today so I am going to see how I feel when I get to the track. I am going to increase my warm up to 2 miles and if I'm feeling ok then my tempo run is going to be 35 mins @ 7:45. If I struggle at that pace I will just run slow and steady for a few miles. Like you i was also aiming to build my tempo runs up to 60 minutes but will also run it slower than I have been recently i.e. 7:45 and not 7:03
12/02/2013 at 07:47

Carter - you are an early bird !

I know you said that you were trying out High 5 gels - what flavour. I am going to the running shop at lunchtime and will try them during my LSR this weekend ahead of my HM as I am doing 8 miles of MP broken up into 2 4 mile stints.

12/02/2013 at 07:56

Carl - I get up early to take the dogs for a walk before I go to work. I travel for about 90 minutes and I let to get there early and leave early therefore missing the rush hour traffic.

Gels - no idea what the flavour was to be honest ! I just picked up a couple of sachets without really looking at them. Let's hope that doesnt come back to haunt me at the weekend. I've also got a powder to add to my water; this is meant to see me through the whole run while the isogel is meant for a boost along the way

12/02/2013 at 08:48
I use high5 gels Carl. They can be sweet & sticky - avoid getting them on your fingers & gloves - annoying! I find the most palatable flavour summer fruits or just plain orange.
12/02/2013 at 12:17

aarrgghh - one evening I don't get online and there's pages to catch up on!!!

Carter - intervals: the order doesn't really matter. Tempo runs: yes 7:45 pace and gradually increase the distance up to maximum of 6 miles plus w/u c/d. A good alternative is a progressive run which reduces the fatigue whilst giving a similar training benefit. You could do 6-10 miles starting slow and each mile increase the pace. e.g.: 9:45, 9:30, 9:15, 9:00, 8:45, 8:30, 8:15, 8:00, 7:45, 7:30 is 10 miles total. Good session!

Hannah - recovery runs - 2 days after is fine - the key is to get an easy run inbetween 2 sessions.

Hi Dobster and welcome - I think they mean 1 mile w/u, 1 mile c/d plus 4 miles in the middle incorporatong 6 x 2 minute hill efforts. "I seem to go too quick on my slow runs but not quick enough on the fast ones.  Should I be trying to slow myself down so my body can recover on my slow runs?" - YES!!!

12/02/2013 at 12:38

Welcome back Spoons 

09/03 I am due to run the Grindleford Gallop. I was thinking that I might change this and run either the Retford HM on 10/03 or the South Yorkshire HM on 17/03. Both of these routes are flatish so I was thinking it might be better for my marathon preperation rather than running 22 miles up hill and down dale. And, I am yet to run a flat half so am keen to see if I can beat my PB again. Is trying to beat by PB in one of these too close to Manchester or could I still give it all the beans ? What do you think ?

12/02/2013 at 13:31

Back in the game.

6 miles, no adverse reaction and once me old bones had stopped protesting everything felt good for the last mile or two. So pleased with that. Tomorrow I am cycling and then I am due for a session thursday, friday and a LSR sunday. Any suggestions what format the two midweek sessions should take?

All ideas welcome.

Carter, Mrs.Oirish had a glint in her eye last night and came to bed in her most seductive flannelette nighty, the one that barely reaches her ankles and her face dropped when I entered the boudoir in top to toe reflective clothing.

Pecking her on the forehead and cosying upto my pillow I told her "I'll be up early in the morning" 

"If only" she sighed, which I found odd as she has shown no interest in taking up running at anytime before.

Perhaps it was a hint that she wants trainers as a Valentine's day present?  Who says I don't understand the workings of the female mind?

12/02/2013 at 13:39

Oirish - sounds like you certainly have a way with the ladies, I might be after some tips in the build up to valentines day......

You ideally need to get at least one speed session into your training plan. Currently, I am running a tempo run on Tuesday and intervals on Thursday, MLR on Wednesday, LSR on Saturday and a recovery run on sunday. If you want to message me with your email address I will send you my training plan for your perusal. Spoons has advised me on this so you should be able to pick up a couple of useful things from it.

12/02/2013 at 13:40

Oirish - the thing with women is they rarely know the workings of their own minds, so you have no chance - better news on the run though!!

Thanks all for the great advice. I am going to go for a MLR tomorrow - of about 7/8 miles, and then will do a session on Thursday (sadly on treadmill) after my pilates. Then might do a 3 mile jog on Sat before HM.

As I mentioned, it all seems to be a little vague at the moment, so the direction you're providing me will really help, if only I had more than 9 weeks left.

As for the long runs, I'd appreciate some suggestions.

I can't run a couple of weekends as have family commitments, but next few weeks might look like this.

Feb 17 - HM + WU/CD = 15/16

Feb 24 (can't run from Thursday to Sunday, as half term and home alone with child), could run Feb 25, but have another half on March 3, so reluctant to do too much (say 10?)

March 3 HM + WU/CD - could push it to 16/17

March 9-11 (not sure which day) not sure (18 or less?)

March 15 (LSR) not sure

March 24 (thinking about Cranleigh 21)

easter weekend (poss Easter Monday) 20

then taper

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