RW Forum SIx – 3.30 – 4.00

Carterusm with Spoons

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24/02/2013 at 20:20

I agree you have a 3:30 marathon in you. However, for most, that requires a half time of around 1:36. If you went on the conservative side and got a sub 3:45 in the bag then you would have a very real chance of 3:30 in the autumn or next spring.

24/02/2013 at 20:46

Carl - my limited experience may be of some help to you:

I also ran my HM pb in the build up to my one & only marathon.
This HM was also similarly 5/6 weeks before Marathon day.
I also ran 1:41
I ran 3:44 in the subsequent marathon.

Two points that differ from your scenario:
-My HM was relatively flat and conducive to PB's - your HM course today was the opposite.
-My marathon  was an undulating course with two long uphill drags of 1m+ each and maybe a few mins slower than Paris?

So based on that I reckon if everything is right on the day in Paris you will run sub 3.40

To pick up your comment Spoons  - is it possible that Carl's 1:41 today is probably comparable to a 1:36 on flat, fast, PB conducive course? ... and therefore he could go closer to 3:30?

24/02/2013 at 21:07

Evening. A nice run in the light snow this evening. I planned to do a few miles with some of them at MP, it all depended how my legs felt after yesterday.

So, 2 miles w/u followed by 6 miles @ MP.

Mile 3 - 8:52

Mile 4 - 8:43

Mile 5 - 8:43

Mile 6 - 8:50

Mile 7 - 8:38

Mile 8 - 8:37

Followed by 2.5 miles coold down including a one mile hill.

The legs were fairly tired from yesterday but I felt not  too bad running @ MP. 31 miles at the weekend felt like a good effort and I feel like things are moving in the right direction quite nicely.

24/02/2013 at 21:54

You're certainly getting the miles in the legs Carter! How many is that for the week? What do ypur weeks peak at mileage wise?

25/02/2013 at 08:00

Ricky - last week I did 48 miles. I normally run 5 times a week but last week was only 4 as I was feeling a bit tired so I skipped a session. I have the very optimistic target of 60 miles in 4 weeks time but I dont think I will get near that at all and, to be honest, I dont feel I need to. I have got 5 more 50 miler weeks but in the middle of that is another HM so I will just have to juggle things about a bit. I find the speed sessions take more out of me than the longer runs. What's your plans for this week ?

Carl - how are you feeling today ?

25/02/2013 at 08:20

Spoons - I've made a couple of changes to my plan based on how the last few weeks have gone. I've emailed it to you so if you can let me know what you think.

Cheers

25/02/2013 at 09:37

Carter - I'll have a look in a bit. 50 miles a week is fine.

Ricky W wrote (see)

To pick up your comment Spoons  - is it possible that Carl's 1:41 today is probably comparable to a 1:36 on flat, fast, PB conducive course? ... and therefore he could go closer to 3:30?

Quite possibly. It's difficult to know without doing it. I would generally err on the side of caution with marathon paces. For every minute you gain in the first 20 miles you tend to add on 3 in the last 6 miles!

25/02/2013 at 09:52

Starting to finally feel as though my fitness is improving, yippee!! Managed a 4.3 mile recovery run this morning in 8.58 average (so perhaps a bit too fast for a recovery run). Would like to do a better time in this Sunday's half than a couple of weeks ago, so if anyone has any suggestions as to how I should proceed with this week's training, I'd appreciate it!

Was thinking about running on Weds and Fri as well, but could make it Weds and Thurs run after pilates.

Hope you're all feeling good after some seriously impressive weekend running

25/02/2013 at 09:59
Cheers Spoons.

Hannah - what is your normal week like in the build up to a half ?
Mine would be a normal speed session on Tuesday, an easy run in Wednesday but cut down the mileage to 6 miles and another speed session on Thursday but cut the session down compared to what I would normally do. 2 days of no running but will take the dogs for a walk just to stretch the legs and I am raring to go for the race on Sunday. From what you say above I think you can remain about the same til Wednesday but don't overdo things after that, I guess it's just a mini taper we are talking about here.
25/02/2013 at 12:23

Hannah - much as Carter says. I always recommend on the Thursday doing your pace work at half marathon pace so you get used to that pace.

25/02/2013 at 13:36
carterusm wrote (see

Carl - how are you feeling today ?

Carter - good question. I certainly know that my body exerted itself yesterday. I have that drained feeling that you have after a marathon.

The good thing is that I do not feel unduly stiff or sore.

So I am going to try and go about my running weelk as normal this week. I may find this hard to do as it seems that most people on these forums struggle the week after a hard HM race. Need to check my plan but I think it is a 21 miler for the LSR this week with some MP and it might be when I get to this I am still not fully recovered. But we shall have to see.

Still on cloud 9 from yesterday.

25/02/2013 at 13:45

And so you should be mate. Have you found yourself thinking about Paris and what you might be able to achieve there ?

I think you are right to carry on as normal, that's what I did a couple of weeks ago and I found I wasnt anymore tired than normal. All those miles of training must be doing some good for us ! I think it's a case of listening to your body and take it a bit easier if you are.

 

25/02/2013 at 14:10

Hi all - Carl, I'm not surprised you're still on cloud 9. That was a tremendous effort!

Carter/Spoons - to be honest it's been a bit hit and miss. I have suffered in previous marathon training with my back and had to defer London last year with a slipped disc, so I have always had to err on the side of fewer quality miles rather than lots of miles.

I'm now running 4-5 times a week, currently at around 35 miles a week, though this will climb to 40-42 over next few weeks. Would it be better to take tomorrow off then do a hardish run on Weds, then something at HM pace on Friday, do you think?

Really I'd appreciate any advice you have. I was going to do a couple of miles WU and CD on Sunday as I'm only up to 16 miles and want to run closer to 18 this weekend.

 

25/02/2013 at 20:32

Ok what MP to aim for. There is no doubt that yesterday suggests that I can run faster than the 3:45 time that I want to achieve. But I do not want to start out too fast aiming for 3:30 and then blow up in mile 20 and miss 3:45.

I think Spoonns is right to think a little more conservatively. Probably the experience of many marathons coming through there.

Yesterday was all about getting to the climb at mile 9 / 10 in good shape and then going for it if I was in good shape. Clearly I was and I did.

If on marathon day I get to miles 17 - 20 in good shape I can start racing it from there. Same kind of principle I suppose.

If I start with 8:00 min miling as my target I will probably burn out as I need to make up lost time in the early miles with the crowds and all that.

So I am thinking that I should target 8:15 to 8:20 and then if things are going well I should be in a good place by the time I get to mile 17 ish and then I can pick it up and see how close to 3:30 I can get. If not I make sure I nail 3:45.

As Spoons says probably better to be a little conservative with this and nail 3:45 and then use Dublin in October to try and secure a 3:30 time.

I cannot believe that I am talking about being conservative to nail 3:45. Really weird.

Edited: 25/02/2013 at 20:32
25/02/2013 at 20:55

Hi Carl - I think you're right to be conservative, however I've always found the marathon distance to be a totally different beast and not really like two halves back to back, but that is probably because I've never quite nailed the training for the full marathon.

In 2012, for instance, I ran a 1.40 HM, on a reasonably hilly one, and then bombed at 19 miles at the Paris marathon because of severe dehydration, though I had been on target to run a 3.40, and had done some decent training, ended up finishing in 4.00.00, but dont remember the last 70 mins!

There are so many things to consider on marathon day that just don't come into the equation with a HM, and it's so frustrating that we so often put all our eggs in one marathon day basket.

However, with plans for another marathon in autumn, I am sure you will nail 3.45 now and go on to even greater things in Dublin!

25/02/2013 at 21:34

Hannah - I think you make a great point here.

The HM is a guide only but conditions are never the same marathon day. Dehydration is a real issue with Paris as it does get quite warm by all accounts even in early April. I have done most of my training at night in the cold. Being honest anywhere in April is likley to be much warmer than yesterday.

So being a little more conservative at the outset may prove to be the correct strategy.

25/02/2013 at 22:02

Hannah is spot on. I think I did a 3:59 marathon one year at VLM after a 1:39 half. I ran 8 min miles for 19 miles. And walked the last 7.2. 

25/02/2013 at 22:09
carterusm wrote (see)

Ricky - last week I did 48 miles. I normally run 5 times a week but last week was only 4 as I was feeling a bit tired so I skipped a session. I have the very optimistic target of 60 miles in 4 weeks time but I dont think I will get near that at all and, to be honest, I dont feel I need to. I have got 5 more 50 miler weeks but in the middle of that is another HM so I will just have to juggle things about a bit. I find the speed sessions take more out of me than the longer runs. What's your plans for this week ?

Carl - how are you feeling today ?

Carter - cutback for me this week. Kicked of with 3mls recovery on the treadmill tonight and then:
Tues - 6 mile tempo
Wed - 9 mile MLR
Thurs - 5 miles + Hill Session
Sat - 6 miles easy
Sun - 14 miles either easy or MP (not sure which yet?)

So 43 miles in total this week.... my plan peaks at around 58 miles pwk from memory and includes 6 LSRs of 20mls+ (two of those 20milers now done). Is there any advantage to doing more than 20mls as an LSR does anyone think? I think my next two scheduled are 21 mls & then final two are 22milers. 

This day 10 weeks time I will hopefully be sat with my feet up with a beer typing my race report on here! 

25/02/2013 at 22:23
Ricky - most people say you only need to do about 22 miles. My personal view is that it would be good to get closer to the 26 mile mark to give me the knowledge that I can get there. 2 points to counter that: 1) a lot of people on here are more experienced than me, have gone through many marathons so know what they are talking about and 2) I have done a couple of runs, like on Saturday for example, where I may have only done 20.5 miles but I spent 3:38 on my feet which is somewhere near the time I will be on my feet at Manchester, hopefully !! So, in answer to your question, no I don't believe you need to go more than say 22 miles in training. Instead of running to miles this weekend why don't you slow it right down and run for a certain amount of time instead ?
25/02/2013 at 22:28
Carl - as we have said before, there are people on here with far more experience than us and they are suggesting a cautious approach. I feel this is something I really need to work on for race day or I can see myself flying off at the start. So, I think you said previously that your PB is about 4:20 ? All of us here are confident that you can nail a 3:45. That means a PB of 35 minutes which is a hell of a good run. If you were told now that you were guaranteed a 3:45 would you take it ?
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