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Carterusm with Spoons

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25/02/2013 at 22:49

Carter - this is what I said back on 22nd Dec. Remember that day.

Carl D wrote (see)

Well done carterusm  Interested to know what your target time is as this thread has a range. I am doing Paris in April and am aiming for 3:45 so will be following you with some interest.

That is of course after you get all this Christmas excess out of the way ...

My original objective for this marathon was to get under 4 hours but 3:45 was what I was hoping for. When I set out on this journey I think it was more of a hope as you say with a 4:20 behind me, 3:45 is a massive leap.

So if I was guaranteed a finish time of 3:45 today I would take it.

What this training has shown me is that with more training like this I can get close to 3:30 (and of course when I do I will want to get to 3:15 which is a GFA time for VLM).

But having kicked this round today it is clear that starting out with 3:30 in mind would be a recipe for disaster as I will start too quick and end up bonking by 20 miles and potentiually risking the 3:45 finish. I would never forgive myself.

So it is all going to be about how I feel and judging it on race day.

What yesterday has proved to me is that if I feel good anything is possible. I have never before run a negative split. I have never before run the last mile as my fastest mile in a long distance race. So I now knoe that I can do it but it is all about putting myself in that position in a much longer distance. So starting very controlled and running the first half consistent will be the key. I can then begin to lift the pace if I feel good and if I get to mile 17-20 feeling strong I can then begin my push and see what happens. If I don't I just need to make sure I nail 3:45.

So I think a MP in the 8:15 - 8:25 range during training over the next few weeks is what I will home in on and see how this feels.


26/02/2013 at 07:02

Sounds sensible. No guarantees in marathons I'm afraid. 

Re: running over 20 miles. There's lots of pros and cons.

The pros are the added training benefit (this is minor - I'm not convinced you gain a lot more from running 22 miles than 20 miles) and the mental benefit  - this one is major - the marathon is at least 50%. Knowing you can get to 22 miles or so in training will boost confidence. Many elites run around the marathon distance and many people (including me) have been known to run "warmup" marathons in their marathon training. These can be of benefit but must be run very slowly.

The downside is simple though - fatigue grows considerably over 20 miles and takes a long time to recover from. This can affect your marathon and also your next few weeks training. If you have run loads of marathons your body will be more used to it and so will recover quicker. And if you run at MP + 120 seconds your body will recover quicker too.

i would generally suggest a max of 22 and all run slowly. Keep the MP stuff to 20 milers.

26/02/2013 at 07:55

Spoons - I have added some MP miles into my LSR for 20 miles and less. for those weeks I am doing more than 20 I have added some MP miles into my midweek MLR and my Sunday shorter run. Is that OK ?

26/02/2013 at 12:11

Hi all,

I won't add further to the debate on your approach to Paris Carl I think you seem to be settling on a plan

. I too am aiming for 3:45 for my Spring marathon and trying to nail a 3:30 in the autum, I figure by then I'll have a good years targetted training under my belt to give it a lash. Much will depend on how my Halstead & Essex goes but no matter what the outcome it gives me something to plan my summer training around.

Well this mornings run was really encouraging, I did what can safely be described as a hill run, I was going to attach a picture of the hill I took but frankly can't be arsed hunting for the cables!!  

Colchester is blessed with plenty of hills thanks to it being an old Roman Garrison (as opposed to those brand new Roman Garrisons that are popping up everywhere) so is built on top of a blody great big hill with lots of roads leading up to it so I picked on one and fixed it with a steely gaze....then took its photo.

It was a 1.1 mile jog out @ 9:30 pace and then 4 miles @ 8:50 consisting of 8 trips up and down the hill in a 2 x 4 pattern with a 5 min jog inbetween each set of 4 and then 1 mile @ 7:55 home  and 0.5 cool down @9:55.

According to mapometer that is 827 ft of elevation.  All I know it is fairly steep.  I was fairly conservative on my first few ascents not wanting to peak too soon, pardon the pun but sped up on each attempt until my last ascent was nigh on an eyeballs out lung busting sprint so to follow that up with a sub 8 min mile and doing so comfortably felt superb. I think one of the most pleasing elements of it all was that my form was good all the way around, I had plenty of bounce in my run home. Oddly enough I found it harder going downhill than up.

A bite to eat and a bit of work and it's Pilates this afternoon. 

26/02/2013 at 12:28

Good work Oirish

That sounds fine Carter

26/02/2013 at 19:38

Hi there - I thought I'd sent this message before, but not sure what happened. Spoons, I was wondering if you could please suggest an interval/speed session for me for tomorrow, bearing in mind I'll probably do 30 mins at HM pace with a WU/CD on Thursday after pilates.

Many thanks


26/02/2013 at 20:13

Tempo Tuesday for me at the track tonight.

1.5 mile warm up.

The plan was to run for 40 minutes @ 7:20 pace but after a hard weekend the legs were a bit tired so I managed 30 minutes (4.15 miles) @ 7:17 then 1 mile cool down.

26/02/2013 at 22:10

Hannah - I wouldn't do anything too draining tomorrow if you're doing a tempo run on Thursday and a Half on Sunday. Personally I would just do an easy run but if you must then something shorter. How about 10x400s but not flat out. Around 10km pace with 1 minute recovery.

26/02/2013 at 22:12

Good hill running Oirish - sounds like you are in fine fettle!

Carter a fast 4 for you tonight - impressive after your exploits over the weekend!

Events were such that I was forced to do my tempo on the treadmill this evening... was supposed to do 6mls but time constraints meant I only got 5.25 done. Not going to stress about it though as I'm having a cutback week anyway.
Different approach tonight & ended up as an interval session with some tempo to finish - having never run intervals before I thought the treadmill would be the ideal place to try it out.. Wasn't really sure what I should be doing tbh but it looked like the following.:

0.25 ml w/up (pushed for time - eager to get going!)
5 x 0.5mls @ 7.04 pace with 0.15ml recoveries @ 9.10 pace
2 mls @ 8 m/mls.
0.1 ml cool down (rush out to collect no.1 daughter!)

Have to say I found these paces hard going - much harder than I would find them on the road for some reason. Who says treadmill running is easy!

What are your thoughts? - were my recoveries too short?

26/02/2013 at 23:51

Evening from the resident night owl

Oirish - that was a really good session from you this morning. Very interesting way to describe running a marathon "give it a lash". Have not heard somebody say that for quite a while.

Hannah - I agree with Spoons. Last week I did a tempo run of sorts on Tuesday, a reduced distance MLR on Wednesday and a cut back interval session on Thursday. This probably helped me give it my all in the race on Sunday. Spoons has alawys advised that less is more in the week of a race and so far the results are encouraging.

Ricky - very interested in your workout on the treddie. Next week I am in America for work so will need to do my 3 mid-week sessions most likely in a gym. The problem running on a treddie is that you have to run at the same pace all the time. When running outside, you can always adjust your pace a little and this makes it easier on the body. So I suspect that the intervals on the treddie need to be longer not shorter as your body is working harder for what seems like a pace you could handle moreeasily on a track. Interested in what others think but suspect that your recovery runs were too slow and too fast.

26/02/2013 at 23:55

Carter - fast tempo from you tonight. With the mileage you have been putting in it is no wonder you needed to reduce the length of the run. Better to do this than carry on.

What does your plan look like for the rest of the week ?

Do you have another HM in your plan and if so when is it or have you decided against it ?

27/02/2013 at 00:12

The reason for posting so late tonight is that work has been playing havoc with my evening. Came home at a sensible time so that I could pick up the little footballer. Then I got a series of phonecalls/emails that needed addressing which delayed ny run by about an hour. When I came back in I had round two of phonecalls and emails.

Tonight I went out with a 6 mile tempo in mind but had decided that if I did not think I was up to it that I would do an easy run instead.

Tonight was more about mental strength than physical strength. No stiffness / tiredness in the legs. Dark, cold and windy with a very strong headwind on mile 3 and 6 of the tempo, on an uphill gradient.

1 mile wu at 8:53 min/mile.

6 miles tempo at 7:32; 7:33; 7:36; 7:27; 7:32 and 7:31

1 mile cd at 9:18 min.mile.

Total 8 miles at 7:56 min/mile.

I had to work hard to keep mile 6 on the money.

After the exertions of the HM I found that I had to really focus tonight to keep going. It would have been so easy to have given up and ran an easy run.

Will the exertions of the weekend catch up with me later in the week ? What is the normal experience ?

I am planning on a 10 mile MLR tomorrow night with some MP miles thrown in for good measure.

27/02/2013 at 05:37
Carl - I think our plans are very similar following all the discussions on here and the advice from Spoons. The rest if my week looks like this:
Today - 10 miles easy MLR with 4 @ MP
Thursday - 12x400 with 1 min recovery
Saturday - LSR 22 miles
Sunday - 6 miles with some at MP
I have entered the South Yorkshire half which is in 2 weeks. Its 5 weeks before the big day so I can give it everything and still have plenty of time to recover. I have put down 1:43 as my target time but the course is a lot flatter than my previous races so hopefully there will be a PB coming my way
27/02/2013 at 08:11

Carl - I want "Hr gave it a lash" as my epitaph, either that or "Gone but forgotten" with strict instructions not to tidy my graveside. A good run for you there, I always feel on reflection that I get more out of the "difficult" runs where you have to dig deep than I do when I feel like I'm flying. Knowing that at the crunch mentally and physically you were up to overcoming it.

Today for me is a 7 mile MLR with 4 @ MP the rest of my week is 

Thursday - 7 miles intervals 

Saturday - 16 miles LSR. I am forsaking the country lanes for a bit of coastal running this week. A change is as good as a rest as they say.

Sunday - 5 miles recovery run and an afternoon on the bike as far as the seafront and a couple of pints and some amazing fresh fish for lunch.

Carter - I have the Colchester Half the same day, then 8 weeks til race day which gives me a few weeks to work hard on what my HM tells me before my taper

I am going for gait analysis and a new pair of trainers on saturday, over the last few years between quite a serious foot injury and general improvement in running form I have had to adjust trainer types and I do feel back somewhere near to my best so I'll be interested what it comes up with. 

27/02/2013 at 09:28

Oirish - what time are you aiming for at Colchester ?

Carl - good run last night after the efforts of the race at the weekend.

10.2 miles for me this morning.

5 miles at an easy pace (9:33, 9:39, 9:49, 9:42, 9:33)

4 miles at MP (8:35, 8:28, 8:28, 8:36)

1.2 miles at 9:38

The legs were heavy after the 3rd mile @ MP and the 4th mile started with a bit of a drag. I had to talk myself into carrying on with the last MP mile and it was hard going. Anyway, it's done now

27/02/2013 at 10:49

Carter - I am aiming for 1:40 to 1:45. I am running it more because it is my home town event, it does fit nicely into training as a gauge of fitness or practicing MP before the last block of training.

I am going to check out the route on the bike some time soon before deciding on strategy. The first few miles yo-yos up and down hills just to get it to pass through the local landmarks in the town centre and I am quite a good hill runner so if the second half is as flat as they say I might attack it from the off.

This morning was 7 miles for me I decided to do my slow tomorrow (I'm taking a friend out with me, she is suitably slow) and do a bit of speedwork today.

1 mile @ 9:16

Then 8:27, 8:01, 8:10, 7:47, 7:57, 7:07

1 mile @ 8:55

Took a while to get into the swing of things today, bit of a stiff left bum cheek for a mile or two but was ok after that, mile 6 was a lovely straight flat footpath so could really stride out.

Good fun

27/02/2013 at 10:56

I ran this event two years ago in 1:47 and I'd been off of work and in bed for five weeks with kidney stones and an infection. I'd only been back on my feet for a week so if I don't beat that time there will be tears.

My PB is 1:31 but that was a decade ago. So I feel that is out of sight now.

27/02/2013 at 12:37
Ricky W wrote (see)

What are your thoughts? - were my recoveries too short?

Am I correct in saying your recoveries were about 1 minute? If so, I would either stop and walk for a minute or if you want to run at 9 min miling on the recovery they will need to be longer.

Carter - it might be worth dropping the MP on midweek runs and just running easy if they are a struggle. Otherwise the Thursday session will be harder than it needs to be and the Saturday long run will be even harder again.

Carl - just run easy tonight and hopefully tomorrow you'll be feeling better although it can take a while to feel 100% again.

27/02/2013 at 12:45

Spoons - I have 7 LSRs (obviously not running one on the weekend of the half) before Manchester. Out of those, 4 are including miles at MP. Is that going to be enough MP miles ?

27/02/2013 at 13:04

Spoons - HELP!  Sorry, I am feeling extremely cheeky as I keep asking for advice and I have nothing to offer in return!

So I pulled my leg a week ago sunday but stupidly kept on with my plan last week.  By thursday I knew I had definitely pulled something as a line where my shin and calf meet on the inside of my right leg was sore to touch and I could feel it hurting when I walked.  You said to rest, stretch and ice which I have done.  I have iced it every night but have done it for half an hour at a time or longer which I now think was too long.  The original pain has gone and is all good but my calf feeld a little out of sorts.  Not painful, just a bit tight, I'm wondering whether I have pulled it by walking funny to avoid the original pain or iced it too much.  Everyone offers me their opinion on it but all the advice is conflicting!

Anyway I have two questions:

1 - When do you ice and when do you heat an injury?  Rollering is painful (almost feels like I'm bruising it) but I am sticking with it, if only for a couple of mins a night.

2 - I missed my 16 mile long run last suday and this weekend I should be racing a half marathon (haven;t entered one) and 18 miles next sunday.  When should I test the leg out again and how to I ease back to my plan?  Do I attempt the 16 miles this weekend and forget the HM?  Do I start back at 2 miles and work my way up?

Sorry again for these, probably very simple, questions.  I am very inexperienced and am stressing about the marathon which is in 7 and a half weeks

Any advice really will be gratefull appreicated xx

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