RW Forum Six – Sub 2.50 Kier with Parkrunfan

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30/12/2012 at 18:53

A very respectable weeks training Keir, especially considering the lurgy. Can’t say I’ve ever suffered un the undercarriage that way, bet the other parents at the nature park thought you had been visiting the Blue Oyster Bar the night before….

Loving the progressive splits prf!!!  Out of interest, are you planning the same training approach to Keir for your Marathon? Same session breakdown and what not?

I sacked off the 10K race I had planned this morning and went for a long run instead. 18miles with a couple of clubmates, first 10miles @ 8:00/m with a speed up for the rest for an overall average pace of 7:48/m. HR was higher than it should have been for the pace and 7:30s were tough. Dropping the race turned out to be a good call as running was hard work this morning.

30/12/2012 at 20:20

YD - Yes and yes but I will be blogging it separately once we get into the New Year.

Nothing wrong with your session today. We were just saying earlier today that it would be unusual if the longer runs didnt feel like a bit of a struggle at this stage. It is going to be harder for you, with it being your first marathon, to be confident that patience is a key factor in marathon training. It is very easy to peak too soon and be on the way down the other side come M-Day if you're not careful.

31/12/2012 at 10:56

Yep fully aware and not sweating how the longs runs are feeling now prf.
As for not peaking and burning out I have a plan. I had a think about when I have burned out before and realised that stringing together 5 or 6 weeks solid training together has often led to a peak and then crash for me. So with that in mind, my Marathon plan is structured into three 4 week blocks with two down weeks between and a three week taper. The sessions and the way they progress is much like the plan I posted up here a while back, just broken down differently.

The down weeks and first week and a half of taper will still contain some decent training I would have though, though I haven’t planned them in any detail yet.

31/12/2012 at 15:08

Looks like a good session you had there PRF. Always nice to have a controlled start and finish strongly, especially in an off road race where everyone seems to go flat out from the gun. 

You are right, the pace between 7.30 - 8m/m feels quite comfortable at the moment, but having spent the past 2 months chugging away at that effort under HADD I am now quite happy ticking off the miles and enjoying running without stressing about the pace. 

Sounds like you made the right decision regarding the race YD. No point ammering yourself if you are not up to it mentally and physically. I guess one of the changes for you whilst marathon training will be to race below par on tired legs and not get too stressed about it. My 10m and HM PBs were both run 3 - 4 weeks out form the Marathon and although it was nice to get a pb, I was aware that I could have gone better with fresher legs. But well done on getting round that 18m whilst not feeling great. They all count 

Like you suggest YD, I have tended to follow a 3 weeks on, 1 week easy peroidsation build for previous marathons. Under the PRF 8 week plan, Feb Half term falls somewhere in the middle and I would expect to take an easier week at this point - either slightly reduced effort, mileage or both. 

After investigating my runnig tights I noticed a bit of material which seems to reinforce the gusset has become unstitched. Probably this which caused the chaffing so I will ask my wife to repair (after they have been washed!).

8m through thick bog and over the Downs today. Very windy, which added a sting to the horizontal rain. 1hr 5mins so not much change from 9m/m, but it wasn't about the pace. A tough run but one that made you pleased to be alive!

PRF - Is my plan till the end of Jan fine? For interest what are you doing differently for the next 4 weeks and what's everyone elses plan till the end of Jan?

edit: Forgot to say, glad you posted and are enjoying the thread SC. I have a feeling many people are lurking. Come on out of the woodwork and post guys. Us faster guys don't bite (too many calories in human flesh!).

Edited: 31/12/2012 at 15:10
31/12/2012 at 17:19

Keir - looks like I've got a similar virus type thing to the one you've just had. My wife wasn't too well over the Xmas period but I thought I'd got away with it.....until I woke up this morning with swollen glands. Anyhow, I owe you a thanks because i thought about you getting out there not feeling 100% and made the effort this morning to do 7.4 miles at 7:45mm. Horrible conditions! have to see how I am tomorrow!

Really enjoying this thread. You seem to be in a good place after all that Hadding!

PRF - nice going!

YD - good solid miles especially with this weather!


31/12/2012 at 17:28

Good to see that traditional roles are being kept alive and well in your household Keir and the job of painstakingly reinforcing your gusset has been passed on to your lucky wife ! If truth be told I'd be a liability with a needle and thread so no doubt it'd be the same at our gaff. Hope you had fun carefully investigating your running tights - I assume you were gloved/haz mat suited up a la Dustin Hoffman in Outbreak

I find even in base training some days 7.30 pace really can feel like a bit of an effort. Definitely best to ignore the evil Garmin and go by feel at this stage.

Looks like a hilly/windy race for you prf. Nice work charging througgh the oack in the later miles

31/12/2012 at 17:34

It was quite a interesting to investigate Fraser. Always nice to see a bit of culture! You are right about the sewing though. I'd probably leave the needle in, and we all know what that would lead to!

01/01/2013 at 08:52

Happy New Year all sub 2.50ers!

Nice sunny one down here. Plan to get out for 15m with 80min @ 80% max HM (152bpm) in about 1 hour. 

Sorry to hear you are under the weather DS2. This one seems to linger around so if you have time off you might lose 3 weeks of fitness!

edit - that is to do the run in 1 hours time, not to cover 15miles in 1 hour!

Edited: 01/01/2013 at 08:55
01/01/2013 at 14:51

Just covered 15.25 mile in 1 hr 55min. Within that I did 80mins @ 80% max HR - 151bpm (a touch below Marathon HR). This section came out at 11.2miles - 7.11m/m. Felt a bit fast at first, then as I got used to the effort felt nice and comfortable. Got a bit tiring just past the 60min mark but felt great over the final stretch.

I felt a bit of knee pain last night - tender right on the bone on the side. Although it feels sore when walking, it is fine whilst running. So I'll carry on but keep it monitored. 

01/01/2013 at 14:59

Keir - nice going, especially on New years Day! You look very well set up for VLM!

I can't face missing training and since I feel ok when running I'm keeping at it. Managed an easy hilly 4.5 at 7:55mm this morning after a few too many beers last night. Three weeks off would kill me!

Fraser - I'm rubbish with the needle and thread as well so Mrs DS2 always has to come to the rescue. I know aht you mean about some days it's harder than others. I quite enjoy the days where time is immaterial nowadays! Lovely in the sun this morning!

01/01/2013 at 19:24

Keir, very nice base building miles there, runs like that will lay a nice platform for the 8 weeks of work. How does the HR/Pace ratio compare to when you were in 2:54 shape?

DS2 – I have a BS Calculator that says that each hangover mile is worth 1.25miles. So you can put 5.62miles in your training log

13.30miles for me this afternoon. 
Session breakdown: 5.04m warm up – 45 minutes of alternating 5mins@MP with 5mins@HMP – 1.12m cool down.
45 min effort section came out at: 6:25/m, 6:11, 6:22, 6:08, 6:28, 6:06, 6:28, 6:06, 6:31.
Hard work that lot, started the MP bits too fast and got slower with the other way round for the HMP bits.

01/01/2013 at 20:53

Just watching World's Strongest Man. I'm wondering if rather than 3 sprints up a big hill, a more accurate way to find your maximum pulse could be to strap on a leather belt and pull a 53 seater coach 50 metres. 

Very nice run there YD. Looking good for an early stage in the campaign.

Hard to answer your question about how todays run compares to a similar point of the campaign in 2011, as I haven't got details of a similar run at a similar time, but here are a two as comparisons:

19 wks out - 6.8mile - ave HR 149 / ave pace 7.23m/m:

Distance Split pace Avg. HR
1.00 7:23 143 (75%)
2.00 7:37 144 (76%)
3.00 7:19 152 (80%)
4.00 7:42 150 (79%)
5.00 6:53 155 (82%)
6.00 6:48 159 (83%)
6.38 8:58 135 (71%)

15 weeks out - 12mile progressive - ave HR 147 / ave pace 7.26m/m:

Distance Split pace Avg. HR
2.00 7:15 141 (74%)
4.00 7:33 145 (76%)
6.00 7:22 150 (79%)
8.00 7:14 152 (80%)
10.00 7:01 156 (82%)
10.96 9:00 136 (71%)

Between these two runs I ran a HM pb of 1.24.58 and a 10m in 1.3.31 - just 2 sec slower than my pb. 

So looking at the stats above, if anything, todays run shows I am slightly faster for a similar bpm. This gives me confidence as I started the 2011 campaign on the back of that 3.03 marathon at Orpington (the one shown in RJ's posted the video) and I was concerned that I would have some catching up to do to get to a similar position this time. 

01/01/2013 at 21:03

Forgot to say, I can't upload any runs from my Garmin to my PC until I get back to school, due to some restriction on uploaded files on my work's owned laptop. 

01/01/2013 at 21:11
Y D wrote (see)

DS2 – I have a BS Calculator that says that each hangover mile is worth 1.25miles. So you can put 5.62miles in your training log .

Brilliant - my 60 miles last week would be worth 75 then because every one of them was run with a hangover.


01/01/2013 at 21:26

Super sessions there YD and Keir

01/01/2013 at 21:27

But surely that was necessary stock piling of alcohol to see you through the 2013 VLM campaign drought Minni?

01/01/2013 at 22:37

Good sessions from both of you, Keir and YD, which basically show that both of you wouldnt be too troubled if the 8 weeks started tomorrow.

Or put another way, the next 3 and a half weeks can be pretty relaxed, confident in the knowledge that the current position plus another 250ish miles in the legs will lead to starting the 8 weeks with a robust infrastrucure.

Very promising.

02/01/2013 at 11:01

That’s good then Keir. Don’t know about you, but one thing I have found is that after a downtime, once I get the consistency going again getting back to previous fitness can happen surprisingly quickly, usually I go past a previous high fairly soon, especially if I am starting from a strong position like you are. Making the bigger gains is more difficult.

prf – I am hitting the harder shorter tempos between now and Brass Monkey Half, then after Dewsbury 10k the graft will start. I will have a couple of 20s in my legs by that point, so all being well I should be able to get stuck into some of those decent long tempo runs I have planned! I hope the benefit of doing the shorter faster tempos now is that it will make 6:29/m feel pretty comfortable.
I think my 2 x 4 weeks of graft will be quite similar to Keir’s 8 weeks in makeup, the difference being that I am coming at it from a different direction than Keir, as he is building up with the sub MP/80% tempo runs (correct me if I am wrong Keir?), with me coming at it having worked on my LT.

02/01/2013 at 14:01

40mile on the bike today. Expecting an easyish and social ride, forgot that as it is now January everyone is either Cyclo-cross fit or winding up for the racing season. Averaged just under 19mph - but there were a few 24mph miles where I was hanging onto the wheel in front.

As per 4 weeks ago, a tender spot comes up on my right knee which causes pain on the top of my thigh near the knee. I think the cause of the pain was when my saddle dropped by over an inch during a ride 2 months ago without me realising!  I then put in some real efforts and seemed to have sprained something. Luckily it didn't hurt when runnig last time, so hopefully that is still the case.

I think that I'll drop the 1 - 2 cycling sessions which I had in my original plan, and definately replace the olympic distance duathlon with a 20miler. 

YD  - Yes, we are trying to get to the same place but from different directions. I have the endurance but not the speed - so am slowly building up the speed and effort over the next few weeks. Where as you have the speed but need to build up to hold it over the distance. 

03/01/2013 at 10:56

Been a bit quiet here recently.

Race Jase wrote (see)
Loving this thread. Although steady on folks cause you'll run out of thing to say!

I guess it's all about pacing then?

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