RW Forum Six – Sub 2.50 Kier with Parkrunfan

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13/01/2013 at 20:09

Weekly summary:

57miles. 2x5m+1x6m rec, 1x5m easy, 1x8m easy, 1x8m inc strides, 1x12m inc 4m Mara HR, 1xduathlon win. 

Slightly lower mileage partly due to returning to work. Good to get some Marathon effort stuff kicked off and also great to get the confidence booster from a win. Especially satisfying as I haven't done anything near the HR I averaged today since the end of October, so quite good evidence that this HADD style base building has squeezed the paste up my tube. 

13/01/2013 at 20:18

Surely the point of the Brass Monkey is that it's cold YD? Sorry to hear about your lurgy, but excellent news of the mileage. Doesn't seem as if it has stopped you. Have you continued running easy, or only just picked it up? It might be a good time for a mini taper anyway. 

Thanks for the congrats everyone. Just to clarify PRF - I was chasing my 6 and 4 yr old round the playground, no other version of chasing the dragon 

Stewart - my HR got up to a stage it was consistent at 70% throughout a 10m run, but I didn't really give it enough time at 75% to totally master this. In an ideal HADD world I would contiune slowly squeezing up the tube and probably be in perfect shape for an autumn marathon. But I'm a bit too impatient for that. 

13/01/2013 at 20:18


Edited: 13/01/2013 at 20:19
13/01/2013 at 20:37
Thanks Keir, my first marathon is in the autumn so ill have plenty time, the HM is only 9 weeks away, I'm in two minds keep Hadding or start doing more tempos intervals etc, I know I'm not ready for the 80% yet, and I would like to pb and go sub 2hrs. Going to keep the 70-75 going for another week and reevaluate then.
13/01/2013 at 20:58

Plan for next week (although snow forecast for Weds onwards permitting)

Mon - 5m easy
Tue - 14m MLR (final 4m @ 7:30, 6:40, 6:10, 5:50)
Wed - 8m inc uphill strides
Thur - 5m easy  
Fri - 11m inc 5m@85% (MP effort)
Sat - 5m off road
Sun - 18m LSR Hilly

Stewart - How about a 4m interval at the end of your longest run 8 weeks out. Run this at your target HM pace and see what your HR is over the final 2 miles. If you are above 88-90% then you know you will need to do some faster training to pb. If you are comfortably under, then you are on track to pb in the HM so just keep doing what you are doing, focusing on the Autumn marathon.

13/01/2013 at 21:42

YD - The first 120 mile 14 day period is a good milestone to boost you on your way to the main marathon training. You must be in better shape, both physically and in confidence terms, going into BM than last year?

There will be no danger of me running past you at 10 miles this year, thats for sure!


Keir - Looks like a good balanced week planned again. But, again dont be concerned if 'MP Effort' turns out to be 6:50/mile, 7:00/mile or 7:10/mile, it is getting the blood pumped around at the appropriate rate that you're trying to achieve.

And, yes, stick to that form of chasing the dragon and you'll be fine, the other type might mess with your HR readings.

I'll be blogging the stuff that I do from tomorrow but this was the last week:
Mon: 10.0 Miles @ 8:53 (Mildly progressive)
Tues: Rest Day
Weds: 8.0 Miles incl Dorothy Hyman 3,000m 11:03 (5;54/mile)
Thurs; 20.0 Miles @ 8:37/mile
Fri: 10K @ 9:28/mile
Sat: 6.0 Miles incl Dewsbury parkrun 19:28 (6;14,6:03,6:09)
Sun: 10.0 Miles @ 9:15/mile

So that tots up to about 60 miles with 5 miles a bit quicker, quite relaxed about things at the moment.

next week will probably be about 70 with a parkrun and Brass Monkey, which will be a strong but not strained run. 1:25-1:27 will be fine,

13/01/2013 at 22:01
Keir, that's a great idea, thanks
14/01/2013 at 09:32

Well yes, I suppose it is Keir, though it wasn’t cold last year, just bloomin windy. As far as I know Brass Monkey has never been postponed or cancelled in the 20+ years it’s been run, so I reckon it will be on.

My weekly summary is as follows:
Mon – Rest
Tue – AM 4.75m @ 8:12/m //  PM 10.61m w/ 10k tempo in 37:40
Wed – 4.30m off road very muddy @ 9:43/m
Thur – 14.06m : 7:50/m
Fri – 4m @ 7:56/m
Sat – 16.03m @ 7:43/m
Sun – 6.88m progressive run on treadmill – 7:20/m ave pace but last couple of miles were faster than MP
60.63m total.

So mostly easy miles, I was supposed to do 16 with 6 @ MP at the weekend, but my legs weren’t having it and with having a head cold I was just happy to get the miles in. Tuesdays tempo was a big confidence booster, a nice low HR for the pace as well.
Plan this week is to play it by ear. If the forecast is ok for Sunday I will make sure I am nice and fresh to race it hard, if the forecast is poor I might just throw in a few extra miles on Thursday and Friday and treat Sunday as a hard training run. I could have a go at running it at target MP and see what the HR does.
Plan until Wednesday is, rest today, 10-12miles on Tuesday night, 6miles on Wednesday, then……………………….

Your week looks like a nice solid balanced type of week Keir, are we taking bets that the 18 becomes 20?

prf – yes I am in much better shape than last year, I think I am possibly in as good as if not better shape than the lead up to Guy’s 10 miler in Dec. Tempo pace to HR ratio is slightly better, and I am running more miles at the moment. If the snot backs off this week I think I should run strongly.
If conditions are poor, I wont go storming off like last year causing a massive blow up! I will be racing smarter, that’s for sure!
I can see your fitness coming on quite quickly now you have a bit more focus. How are the low 6:xx/m paces feeling now?

14/01/2013 at 11:24

I was planning to run the 18 with a mate, so he will probably result in it being that YD, but if he doesn't run, all bets are off!

Here is a pic from yesterday's start. I am just to the right of no: 102. No. 72 in front of me finished 3rd overall and 6x in front of him was 2nd overall).

 Here is a pic from about 2miles from the end (on the fastest bit of the course):

 and to give an idea on what the dykes / bogs were like:




14/01/2013 at 11:33

5m in the snow this morning. Made it much easier to see than normal at 6am. Legs feel fine.

Ok PRF. I won't stress about the pacing too much, but it is good to have a target pace. I think I might try a new route which  includes some flat roads along the marsh. It means that the 4m won't be at the end of the run, but will end 3m from home, but I assume this isn't a problem at this stage. It will be good to find a good flat route for when accurate pacing is more important later on.

Thanks for your weekly summary. It is interesting to see how slow you run some of your runs. Is this deliberate or dependant on terrain. conditions, running partner? However the mounting of Dorothy's hyman sounds like it might have been a bit of a workout for all concerned!

A good week from you as well YD. Tuesday's 10k is particularly impressive. Was that a solo effort? Did you have 16m planned for both Sat and Sun? I am not sure if taking it easy from a 16m inc 6m @MP and instead making it 16m Sat and 6m progressive with 2m faster than MP on Sun would have worked out any different effort wise!

14/01/2013 at 12:33

Loving the warrior style mud smear down your face in the 2nd picture Keir!  You look in control, 2nd run wasn’t it? Looks like a tough course but a lot of fun.

Yes, Tuesdays tempo 10k was a solo effort, 9.5 laps of Thirsk Industrial Estate, its my regular winter tempo spot, flat, quiet and reasonably well lit.
My plan going into the weekend was a 7m easy run and a 16m w/ 6@MP. I set off for the 16miler on Saturday morning open minded about the 6m effort section as I knew my legs were tired and the head cold was in full flow, but after setting out it soon became apparent it wasn’t going to happen, so just ran 16m easy. Sundays plan was to run enough miles to put me on 60 miles for the week, it turned into a progressive run as the legs felt ok, I hadn’t intended it that way. I think had I done the 7 miles easy on Sat, I would have been able to do the 16 w/ 6@MP on Sunday, but I life dictated my long run window was Sat morning.

As for training benefit, I suppose what I did had a similar benefit to what was planned, though I wanted to run some up tempo on tired legs towards the end of a long run to help with the half. I will probably try the same session soon, I want to get it in the bag before trying similar as part of a 20miler.
prf, does run his easy miles slower than most at his level if you go by what you read on running forums. I do get the odd run in the 8 – 9 min mile range, but the majority of my runs tend to come in at just under 8min miles, some in the 7:20 – 7:40/m range when feeling fresher.

14/01/2013 at 12:35

Huge congratulations on our win Keir!

14/01/2013 at 12:50

YD - I have never run BM in anything other than strong winds, that is why I never take it seriously. In fact, I think I'm correct in saying that I have never actively entered it, just taken other people's places just before the event.

But the strong winds make it an even better opportunity to develop pacing by effort skills as opposed to pacing by clock. If you're not higher at the end than halfway you're doing something wrong....

In terms of my faster stuff, the leg strength is improving nicely now. The Dewsbury parkrun course is great for feeling the improvements happening with it being such a testing course and all the signs on Saturday were positive.


Keir - Great pics. It reminds me of my worst experience of 2012 .

In terms of the slow paces, they are a bit misleading to be fair because everything I do is hilly but they are also deliberately slow. Again something learnt from observation, if 8+ and 9+ paces are good enough for 2:15 runners then they're good enough for me.

When you have some spare time, you will probably find this interview with Jocelyn Payne interesting. It goes into great detail of the training and thinking behind the training.

Joss is UK No.1 U23 marathon runner and her coach Greg is an ex sub 2:30 runner.

We followed similar build ups to Oct marathons (although Joss did more mileage being the mileage monster that she is), and we ended up with 2:53 and 2:55 respectively. On an age graded basis we are actually evenly matched.

The interesting thing is how she is as happy as me to train at 9-10 mins/mile.

And lots of slow stuff led us to both running shorter distance PBs (or rather comeback PBs for me).

In Sept, we both had really strong miles (5:00.2 for me and 5:13 for Joss) on the same day as YD did 5:01, BR 5:13 (on one leg), Tom (the interviewer) 5:00.3 and Joss's coach Greg 4:55.

The following weekend I then paced Joss to a 5K PB (17:59 compared to a previous 18:20) the day before my running of 1:18:41 at GNR.

So the combination of very slow easy runs and very fast faster stuff led to a period where we both felt fast and strong.

I found it a riveting interview, even though I was pretty much already aware of most of her build up. Enjoy.

14/01/2013 at 13:03

Thanks for the interview tip PRF. I got into running just before MT started up, so am an 'ever present'. I will go back a few episodes and relisten to it. 

Badbark - are you trying to take some credit? 

14/01/2013 at 13:30

A couple of things she says:

1. 8-10 weeks is a bit short for a marathon build up, 19 weeks is too long if you want to remain sane, 13 just about right.

2. If I go easy I go very easy, if I go hard I go very hard! Nuff said.

14/01/2013 at 13:36
parkrunfan wrote (see)
2. If I go easy I go very easy, if I go hard I go very hard! Nuff said.

What did she say about running training?

Edited: 14/01/2013 at 13:37
14/01/2013 at 13:42

Tut, tut, YD!

14/01/2013 at 13:59

14/01/2013 at 21:56
15/01/2013 at 09:45

Keir, cracking pictures

PRF, thanks for the link to the podcast very interesting,

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