RW Forum Six – Sub 2.50 Kier with Parkrunfan

Tut, tut, YD!

3 more pictures here:

http://www.photoboxgallery.com/gallery/photo?photo_id=7730307285

http://www.photoboxgallery.com/gallery/photo?photo_id=7730307534&vendor_id=3433590

http://www.photoboxgallery.com/gallery/photo?photo_id=7730342231&vendor_id=3433590

Keir, cracking pictures

PRF, thanks for the link to the podcast very interesting,

Keir - great duathlon win.  Who cares about cycle training if you're overtaking the cyclists on the run? 

Just a few comments regarding the MP / HR / pace discussion.  I'm with BR on the HR advice; it takes a couple of miles for my HR to settle on an MP run, so I tend to run at least the first mile split to perceived effort, then take my first glance at HR a little while after that.  My average HR for marathon racing is 168, so at the moment my strategy for MP runs is not to go over 165.  I had a textbook MP run last Thursday, 13.3M w/ 11 @ 5:51/m, and average HR for each mile split (after a 2 mile vaguely progressive warm-up) went: 155, 163, 164, 165, 165, 165, 166, 164, 164, 164, 164. (Note, these are the averages for each split; HR probably got up to about 160 after the first mile.)

Apart from the pace itself, what was most pleasing was being able to keep HR in check right to the end, which gives you confidence that there's a lot more left before cardiac drift starts to creep in.  This is particularly useful to monitor if you're used to doing long progressive efforts, because otherwise it's tempting to get carried away towards the end of an MP run and turn the last couple of miles into a time-trial effort.  This might flatter your overall pace stats but it defeats the object of getting MP to feel as comfortable as possible.

Check out the cheesy grin on Keir in those pics

PhilPub wrote (see)

Apart from the pace itself, what was most pleasing was being able to keep HR in check right to the end, which gives you confidence that there's a lot more left before cardiac drift starts to creep in.  This is particularly useful to monitor if you're used to doing long progressive efforts, because otherwise it's tempting to get carried away towards the end of an MP run and turn the last couple of miles into a time-trial effort.  This might flatter your overall pace stats but it defeats the object of getting MP to feel as comfortable as possible.

Good post Phil. I want to mix up the progressive 10 milers with flat paced MP tempo runs.  MP tempos for the reason you give, keeping a lid on effort, running economically etc, but I also think the progressive runs are more fun and can bring your fitness on quite quickly. The prog 10s might be quite a useful tool for bringing me to a fitness peak close to the Marathon, as well as helping to make MP feel easy as you drive on past it.

prf – I had a listen to the Joss interview last night, nice of her to give you a name check  One thing is clear, she’s a grafter. As you were saying earlier, easy is very easy, hard is very hard for her. She must be pretty robust though to handle that workload and some of those monster tempo runs she describes. Oh, she is also aiming for 2:50 at Manchester, she will make an excellent pacemaker for me

Going to stop lurking to say hello then go back to lurking!!

I am sub 3 marathoner. Was quite a bit faster in my 20s but can't quite back there after having twin boys 6 years ago and a wee girl who is 3 this year. Plus am hitting the big 40 this year too ...

I train hard with high mileage as I get results that way, looking at 80-85 in peak weeks for London this year. Looking for sub3 this year again, but will be happy with sub 3:10 if I'm honest. Enjoying this thread, but am aghast at the 8 hour starvation before an evening run. I am tiny at 7.5 stone, so not eating for more than 2 hours makes me wobbley !

I do run empty mind most mornings so can do that, and can run 20+ miles like this with gels after 8 or so miles if I have a huge dinner the night before.

I also coach endurance at my club (I take the speed sessions and have a few individuals under my wing too) so love reading about other people's training. I am in the very easy runs camp too, and do push hard when I need to push hard. I am currently enjoying a xc season for the first time in a few years since my wee girl was born. Fab for speed and strength.

Also love the progressive type runs too and I run my hard temp runs with the fast guys at the club each week.

I tried the lsr with no fuel at the weekend.  Ate on Friday night at 7:30 - just a sandwich  then nothing else.  Mug of coffee in the morning followed by 20 miles with only water (2 drinks of, one at 6m and one at 17m).  I took a gel just in case because I thought I would need it -  I don't normally but then I normally have breakfast.  However, I found if anything I had more energy than normal and it certainly didn't have a detrimental effect on my run. In fact I ran the fastest 20m ever in training without putting in any MP sections.   (I'm small too Mitchie).  I'll certainly do it again.

What a fascinating read! Marathon training - either doing it or reading about it, really floats my boat. Seriously loving the detail here, many thanks to prf, BR and Hilly for their measured comments and explanations. You guys are making me itch! Really missing the fact that I have made the decision to take a break from marathons till Autumn this year.

Hope you don't mind me lurking (mostly), keep up the good work everyone.

Just a point on both long(ish) MP runs and progressive 10 milers.

These can be mentally tough until you've really got your head around them, at which point you actually cant wait to get on with them. However, they are quite easy sessions if you do them with a number on, physiologically you're getting the same benefits so if you can take the route of least mental energy expense and use races where available all the better.

YD - Yes, nice to get a mention on the Joss interview. In fact my pacing subjects in 2012 were quite an elite bunch, the interviewer, the interviewee and Hilly!

The reason that she can handle the mileage is that she is tiny and light on her feet, although she does have a tendency to get injured running into things, which is not to be recommended.

And she will indeed make a good pacemaker, she is metronomic with those marathon splits, both Amsterdam and Berlin were a series of pretty much text book 5K splits.

Mitchie - Dont de lurk, it sounds like you have plenty to offer these discussions.

Minni - So I'm not totally bonkers then? Feeling stronger at the end of 20+ milers when unfuelled is not just a figment of my imagination....

Minni – I haven’t done a 20 on no fuel yet, but I will next time out (weekend after BM probably) but I have done quite a few 15 – 16 milers un-fuelled, and can confirm they felt the way you described. Though, I can usually eat for England in the few hours after an un-fuelled run.
For those that aren’t sure about trying this, I would recommend trying it on a medium long(ish) run first, say 10 miles or more and then work up the distance.

Agree with prf, Mitchie Moo and Brian, don’t lurk, get posting. I know Brian has, and it sounds to me like MM loads of experience to share with the thread.
+ there is loads of time after BM to fit in a spring Marathon campaign Brian, go on you know you want to  

prf, Joss described her pacing at Berlin in the interview, negative split n’all, so yes her pacing sounds good.

Minni - Good effort!

My last three 20 milers have all been unfuelled (besides a cup of coffee and some water) and energy levels have felt fine.  The urge to nap a few hours later after Sunday roast is pretty strong, but I'm pretty sure that would be the case even after a bowl of porridge for brekky.  This weekend will be an interesting test - 21 miles w/ 7 @ MP being my hardest LR to date. I'll be eating a small horse after that I think.

I've quite a short running background, but pretty early on took to the unfuelled long runs. If I am aiming for a fast finish per Mcmillans approach, I do tend to take a gel or two, and maybe have some porrige the night before. Otherwise nothing after an evening meal.

I crashed and burned on one unfuelled LSR over 20 miles out of about 16 in the last year. Luckily I was near patisserie valerie where I partook in a cream cake or two before finishing the run (no guilt, no big deal)

8m with 8x up hill strides completed. 1hr 10mins. Very slippery and icey in places, but a lovely clear night. Lots of stars. Very quiet in the lanes as well, only 1 car all run. 

Interesting that you felt better without food Minni. Was it Scooby who said similar on the sub 3.15 thread a few days ago as well? I am comfortable running without breakfast and without fuel on the run, but not sure how I would be on just a sandwich for tea. I am also still a little concerned that carbo depleting from running 20milers without fuel has a negative affect on the immune system and takes longer to recover from - which will affect the runs the following week. However, if PRF recommends it...

Thanks for de-lurking everyone, but don't stop posting. We all learn from each other, regardless of speed or ability. Let's hear what training everyone is currently doing - weekly mileage / target times / number of runs per week is a good starting place.

edit: Surely you mean a Pony PP?

Brian - hi!  At the moment I'd like to get back to being able to run a good game, rather than just talking it.  (for reference, see the results of the last Bradford parkrun).

Phil's session hits the nail on the head.  I have known runners over the years who can knock them out with little heart rate drift and have excellent marathons.  I have also known runners like myself who really are not suited to this.  Even after 18 months+ of very individual and specific advice from Hadd, I could only convert a 74 mins HM into a 2:42 marathon.  5:38 HM became 6:11 Marathon, and that was with running exactly to HR.  On paper, even given +20 secs per mile for double the distance this should have been sub 6m/m.  Ho hum.  In years to come I hope I'll be able to say `I converted a 2:42 marathon into some great HM and 10k times' rather than bemoan the lack of conversion upwards.

Well done on the race Keir.  Thanks for the picture of the dykes.  Hope they didnt mind...

2012 was all going swimmingly until I got sucked into track races and ridiculous multiple parkrun challenges!

I normally only have a cuppa tea and a slice of toast before my long run on a Sunday, I did 14 miles with nothing at all during run and I felt fine in fact I could have done another few miles if required.

Hi Brian and Mitchie Moo!

Thanks PRF, but I wouldn't call myself elite by any stretch of the imagination even if I have got 3000m top age ranking in the country this year lol

Haven't had time to read very much lately, what with being back at work and training, but looks like everything is going nicely Keir so far!

On long runs I normally have a slice of toast and coffee, but never have a drink out on the run unless it's in the summer.  I did 20 on Sunday off a banana on a very tough course, but can't say I was flying at the end - more like crawling!  Average for the run was just under 9mm, but the last hill at 19 miles took over 10mins it was that steep!

Also did a tough 14 long hills last night with the club over an 8 mile route.  Anyone who knows Barnsley will know they are proper tough  hills (Yorkshire tough)!  I'm told it's a good session for marathon runners - thoughts?