RW Forum Six – Sub 2.50 Kier with Parkrunfan

I'm intrigued at the thought that somehow unfuelled runs will lead to being more run down somehow. Why?

Just to clarify, you are making things easier for your body not harder.

As I said previously, I wouldnt even think about eating before a morning race but post Chester when I didnt give a monkeys I did eat a couple of hours before we ran at St Albans parkrun.

Even though it was a relatively sedate effort I remember thinking during the run, why do people put themselves through this discomfort and make things more difficult?

Whenever there is digestion going on at least some bloodflow is diverted for that purpose, leaving less oxygenated bloodflow for supply to the working muscles.

Crashing on unfuelled LSRs is very unlikely unless the pace is too high because there is a higher ratio of fat in the fuel mix, something that the body has absolutely loads of.

Hilly - I'm going to stick my neck out and predict that you'll collecting another V45 No.1 ranking shortly to add to the 3,000m

BR - That wouldnt be a parkrun challenge conceived of and organised by a certain Barnsley Runner would it?

Keir - Good to get a session in yesterday but dont go pulling anything on that slippery stuff, especially when half cut on red wine

When I get particularly tired on longs runs (especially when I go into a long run having not recovered sufficiently from the previous harder runs) my hamstrings are the first to ache, as a result my stride length shortens and maintaining a pace can be difficult. I don’t imagine I am particularly unusual in this.
I have often wondered about using hill work to build strength for a Marathon to counter this, or at least delay the onset. Those uphill strides that Keir / Badbark linked could be a good low impact way of doing this without kicking the crap out of yourself.
A chap who posts on another thread ran a good Marathon last year using the tactic of hard hill repeat session on Saturday, long run Sunday on the resultant tired legs. Something about tiring out fast twitch muscles on the Sat, when the slow twitch muscles tire a few miles into the long run on Sun, they normally try to recruit fast twitch muscles to help with the workload, but cant because the fast twitch are knackered, thus preparing the slow twitch muscles to keep working when they might want some help.
I don’t claim to really understand the science, but running long soon after hard isn’t all that new an idea and is maybe worth investigating.

Off for 12 miles now in the frost while my little girl is in pre-school, best get going as only have until 11.45!!.

So far this week:

Mon: 10 miles easy at 6am, 4 miles easy on treadmill plus 45 mins core and strengthing (one twin boy at home sick)

Tues: 5 miles easy 6am, pm 9.5 miles with 6 x mile reps at 6:18 to 6:21 pace, with 90 secs recovery. Bang on what I wanted. Felt harder than it should have done for the pace mind felt like I was breathing ice into my lungs and probably was! I coach this session too so have to shout at folk as I'm training myself!

Weds: About to do 12 miles easy half off road and hilly

Thurs: will be 8 miles easy, 7 miles with 5 at 6:30-6:45 pace I hope! Then off to see podiatrist for new orthotics!

Fri: REST. I always rest one day a week. With 3 young kids I need a down day, although rest day involves dance group for my daughter, take her swimming, lunch/coffee with friends, collect boys from school etc etc.

Sat: 8 easy miles at 6am (then on coaching course all day with 2 hour drive each way )

Sun: 20 miles steady

Will be 82-84 I think.

Last week was 76 miles, but was all mixed up due to my husband doing a mad 40 challenge for his birthday to raise funds for his Mum's disease charity, she dies in 2011. He did 4km swim, 400km bike and 4km run in 40 hours. Nutter!

I run my own garden design business from home, but work is a bit slow this time of year, which is fine by me and I plan for it, so not a worry. It will pick up and then I have too much work!!

The recommendation in my previous club was to the a tempo 6 miles, building to 9 miles on Saturday and the LSR on Sunday. I guess this would have a similar affect in tiring the faster twitch muscles YD. 

No wonder you are able to fit in so many miles with such a quiet, calm and stress free life MM!   - impressive time management.

Here are some articles on carb depletion and immunity suppression for a bit of light reading PRF:

http://www.nature.com/icb/journal/v78/n5/full/icb200076a.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9644095

http://www.carbboom.com/Clients/Carbboom/CBcms.nsf/content/exerciseandImmunity

In plain english, my understanding is that exercise stresses the body, including the immune system. For example. post marathon athletes are up to 6 times more likely to get a cold than a 'normal' person.

Taking carbs before and during exercise partly reduces this stress, where as running the carb stores right down increases the stress on the body, including stress on the immune system. 

I also believe that muscles take longer to recover from exercise where carb stores are depleted. Although post fueling (or small horse eating) helps to replenish these, it is not an immediate, full replenishment and could mean that Tuesdays session is compromised compared to a fully fueled LSR.

So although there is an argument for training the body to use fat over carbs (or increase its % of fat v carbs) by running on an empty stomach (the body will always go for the easiest processed source of energy first, especially when running faster) this is not without an increased risk of picking up a cold etc. 

If you believe Noakes these days you'd be cutting out carbs altogether, Keir....

I understand what Noakes is saying and it seems to have worked well for him. However along with barefoot running, I think with diet the best ideas is if it 'ain't broke' don't try to fix it. I also think as a (fish eating) vegetarian, the paleo diet takes a lot of comitment and planning.

It would be interesting to know how many Tour riders of elite marathon runners follow the Paleo diet. I know Tom Danielson does something similar as he really struggles to digest carbs due to his Eskimo genetics. 

Just anecdotaly, a friend of mine has a digestional problem that meant that although he could run 1:20 HMs, he always crashed and burned going longer, and had only once broken 4 hours for a marathon.  After trying everything, visiting 'specialists' of many descriptions, he found that what worked for him was to stuff himself with porridge as close to the start as possible, and to take a complete stop (not walking) at around 20 miles for a minute or two to take water.  He starts feeling bloated but he can keep going through (apart from the stop), and he's now down to 2:45.  Not a strategy I'd like to try myself, though!

Minni wrote (see)

AR - if you're having a gel or two on those fast finish long runs then they're not strictly unfuelled, are they?

Hi Minni, I have two distinct long runs
Long Slow Runs - I do unfuelled

Fast Finish Runs - I run with Gels and simulate racing conditions. I have done 1 to 3 fast finish 20 milers, and 5 or 6 Long slow runs per marathon so far.

parkrunfan wrote (see)

Just to clarify, you are making things easier for your body not harder.

I've always been of the thinking that you only get out what you put in so I guess this is why I need convincing. A bit like keir said above, I think its ok to put the body under that stress occasionally but to do it regularly might lead to fatigue, which in turn could affect other training runs in with week, along with a low immune system. 

So prf how is it making things easier rather than harder for your body?

I could do with losing a few pounds but rarely do in marathon training because I'm so careful about replacing calories, however, perhaps I'm basically just over eating!

What's the word on the street for the BM on Sunday?  Is the course likely to be snow covered?

PRF I just know I couldn't deplete my body that much, not over the daytime anyway. Not sure a sandwich would get me through a 20 miler the next morning either but its not something I've tried. I had a large bowl of oat cereal piled with fruit and yoghurt, my usual breakfast and felt fab on my run this morning. In the end it was far too quick given the reps last night but I suddenly realised with 2 miles left that I wasn't going to make 11.45 pick up so the last two miles were sub 7. Ooops! Luckily they are used to my manic lifestyle at pre-school and the school!

Yes Keir my life is hectic but I quite like it that way. Today I need to get to supermarket before school pick up, then boys have a friend round to play then I have pilates tonight, my injury prevention stretch out session. I hate it and clock watch the whole time but it sooo helps.

Tues are much worse, 6am run, school drop off, took my wee boy to the orthoptist clinic yesterday so extra then normal! Then music group with my daughter, lots of house jobs, school pick up, then the boys have gymnastics 10 miles away, so jump in the car for that. I do get to sit down for an hour then as S usually does colouring etc. Then  rush back, get kids tea sorted and get out for my coaching/speed session. Always good to be in bed on a tues night! I only work properly on Mondays and Thursdays in school hours and then fit in other hours as needed.

My husband is a fellow runner/duathlete and has in his time run a 2:34 marathon and a 69 half. Now both old with too many in our legs so hanging on until its time for our kids to take over the stead!!

Hilly I think hills are fab in this early part of marathon training, long hills mind, 2-3 mins are the best with a quick recovery. Along with plenty of other conditioning work like squats, lunges etc. We are doing plenty of these at the club mixed in with longer reps. I think once past mid Feb though its time to turn up the pace a bit and stop the hills as they do drain your legs and do actually slow you down a bit.

Interesting views.

Keir - I guess I'm a bit sceptical about the lowered immune system through exercise 'stress' idea because I have myself never found that to be the case. I dont get colds very often but if I do it is likely to be when I am detrained during downtime rather than when in full training.

Anecdotally there also seems to be more risk of catching colds when training load is decreased during the taper leading into a marathon.

But people will have their own differing experiences and also, probably crucially, differing access to pesky little bugs around key training times especially when it comes to kids.

Minni - I've always thought that the body gets incredibly efficient during marathon training such that calorific requirements dont shift that much as mileage increases. However, it is perceived that you need to eat hand over fist just to fuel the runs, hence why few runners lose weight and many actually gain weight during a marathon campaign.

As always I could be talking complete horlicks.

Maybe marathon runners are more likely to go down with cold post-race because they've just spent a weekend mingling (and running) with large crowds of people, rather than it being some exercise-induced phenomenon?

I tend not to suffer from colds after a marathon.   I do however tend to suffer from almighty hangovers, especially if I've been celebrating with your sister CD.

She has a lot to answer for, doesn't she?

Obviously a very contentious subject. I have never really actively starved myself ready for long runs. Its just convenient to get up at 5.30am and just head straight out the door. Same for long runs at the weekend. I would rather have more time in bed before the kids wake me up and I need a long time to digest food before a run. I always eat breakfast before racing though and on marathon day. When hubbie coached me years ago he had read about doing long runs on just a coffee then not starting fuel of any kind until 10-12 miles. This enabling the fat stores to kick in more efficiently, but once they are trained to kick in earlier so avoiding the 'wall' you shouldn't have to replicate this on race day.

I do find myself that I don't get ill very often even with kids around as my kids are pretty healthy, but do find I can feel myself coming down things after long runs if I don't get fuel in quickly enough. Interestingly hubbie has just been reading Tyler Hamilton's book about the tour and he used to come in from a 6 hour ride take some sleeping pills and eat an apple but no other fuel and go to bed to try and lose weight! He says his body was crying out for nutrition but he starved it. Oh was totally shocked by that tbh! Its the thing that keeps me focused on long runs. What am I going to devour when I get in!!

I do eat a bit more when training for marathons but not loads more and I tend to eat more often. More fruit and nuts etc. I do try to eat very healthily, but then have treat days at the weekend for wine and chocolate etc!!

Time for a cuppa and a banana ...

That Tyler Hamilton story is an eye opener, I bet he felt horrid when he woke up!

I think I will stick to doing a few runs before breakfast, but nothing faster than easy pace.

I am a big fan of horse burgers for a refuel after a long run ……….ill get me coat

Admittedly part of my reasoning for at least some of the unfuelled 20 milers was that other people wanted to get them done so early.  This weekend's run is scheduled for a civilised time so I might squeeze in a bowl of porridge with maple syrup.  Should help warm me up a bit.

I cant understand why anyone would fight hunger, it seems like a pointless own goal - a bit like ignoring the flashing fuel indicator on a car dashboard.

The appetite is an incredibly sophisticated bit of technology that is not only finely tuned to indicate WHEN to eat but also WHAT to eat in minute detail.

The trouble with a lot of the way modern living is structured is that not many people actually eat to appetite, there is more a tendency to eat at fixed times because it is 'the done thing' and often eat what is provided rather than what is chosen.

To a large extent this is inevitable but the closer we can get to eating according to appetite, which tends to also mean eating foods as near to their natural form as possible, the healthier we tend to feel.

And talking of appetite, I'm currently satisfying mine after just completing another 20.0 Miles in 2:49:17 (8:28/mile) - 1st 10.0 @ 8:51/mile, 2nd 10.0 @ 8:04/mile

That was the second of those in 5 days, which is what I was looking to do to get a bit an aerobic boost going.

And although it was hilly and mainly on ice it flowed really well, so very pleased with it.