RW Forum Six – Sub 2.50 Kier with Parkrunfan

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17/01/2013 at 08:31

I'm suitably impressed with all that Keir, helluva effort!

Interesting stuff regarding the fuelling. I always eat something before the long run (dont like calling them LSR, because half the time they are not slow), and up until the last couple of campaignes I always drank and sometimes popped a gel. But more recently now I take a drink and a gel but only for emergencies. I think it's more important to fuel the run the day/evening before.

The Tyler Hamilton way seems absolute lunacy. Can anybody see the sense in doing that?

17/01/2013 at 09:04

The Tyler Hamilton way - I think it is fine for us to look at it all as crazy from the outside. But none of us know what it would have been like in that closed enviroment, where it is the 'normal' thing to do, where you either conform or have to leave and re-evaluate your whole career and life aspirations and you see others become rich, wealthy heroes. Surely anyone in that situation must question whether their ethics are outdated or do not apply in this situation?


edit: Forgot to say, that is an impressive Weds evening 20 miler PRF. Do you usually do your long run mid week?

Edited: 17/01/2013 at 09:29
17/01/2013 at 09:51

Badum tish Slokey Joe. I think we need to rein in on the horse jokes now

Nice work on 20 miler prf

Excellent session Keir, some very nice pace and HR number recorded there, has your 71% pace improved recently?

Hard to understand the thinking of Hamilton, but as Keir say’s we will never know what kind of internal pressures were applied on riders in that environment.

Just ticking over here with some mileage, 10.17m on Tuesday, 5 + 7 yesterday, nothing fast due to the ice, -7 outside my house this morning.

I am wondering if the Brass Monkey will be cancelled or postponed on Sunday? Forecast is for the temps to remain below freezing all week with snow forecast on Friday and Saturday. If its cancelled, I hope they make the call early so I can get on with some decent mileage over the weekend.

17/01/2013 at 10:13

Keir - If you're looking forward to the 8 weeks then all is good, Just another week and a half mucking about then time to get training

In terms of long runs I do them whenever but will often set off with only a half idea of getting a long one in rather than a definite plan. The decision will usually only be made as I come towards the end of the first 10 mile loop, if the legs feel up to it I'll carry on, if not the default 10 will be done.

YD - BM may be on but it is highly unlikely to be PB chasing conditions, mainly because of sub zero temps  and the effect that has on the lungs.

Btw will you be seeing SM at all to pick up my number?

17/01/2013 at 10:26

I've heard that Knavesmire Harriers are running the course today and tomorrow to assess the situation re BM.  If we get the snow predicted I may have trouble travelling over the Northumberland moors early on Sunday morning.

17/01/2013 at 10:26

prf - I have put PB chasing out of my mind now, luckily I have plenty of targets to chase down on Sunday, so racing people not the clock will be the order of the day, should it go ahead, I still have doubts.

I was supposed to be seeing SM on Tuesday for a run but his Missus has taken ill so he cancelled. I’ll drop him an email to see what he is going on Sat so I can pick up the number for you.

Minni – it will be fine today, I would have thought. Some ice, but nothing that would cause it to be cancelled assuming the roads are gritted. However, it’s the forecast snow fall that might put a stop to proceedings, IMO.

Edited: 17/01/2013 at 10:33
17/01/2013 at 10:54

5m skipping round the ice this morning. Had to walk some parts. Legs more tired then they've been for a while. 

I realised I might need to sacrifice my 5m easy on Saturday after a conversation with my wife last night. After the usual routine of looking after the kids first thing to give my wife a lie-in, then taking my son swimming, my wife if having lunch with a friend and hitting the shops. Lots of brownie points gained by happily saying I will be ok not to run, only to realise that with the treadmill set up I might be able to sneak in a cheeky 5m whilst also fulfilling my parental duties.

Cheerful Dave    pirate
17/01/2013 at 11:45

Keir, keep a phone by the treadmill.  You don't want to get caught out because you didn't hear your wife call to check something while she's at the shops.  Trust me on this.

17/01/2013 at 11:57

Good tip CD, although I can always use the 'I was changing a nappy' excuse. But I must find a way of bribing the boys to not sneak on me. 

17/01/2013 at 12:33

Interesting article in favour of carb depletion - although it does say this:

Some experimental studies have seen improvement in athletes' fat-burning abilities in as little as three weeks, but Baar says six to eight weeks is more realistic, since such workouts are too stressful to do all the time. Plus, the approach is best avoided when runners fear a cold, because exercising in a carb-depleted state suppresses the immune system.

That's why Austin advises against glycogen-depleted workouts, preferring athletes simply pass on carbs during their daily training runs.

And this article is also in favour but warns caution. 

And here is an interesting article on 'spit or swallow



17/01/2013 at 13:07

Keir - how many free lessons do you get that enables you to find and read all these articles?!!

YD - I meant tomorrow and Saturday.  I'm a day ahead of myself!

17/01/2013 at 13:22
parkrunfan wrote (see)

Whenever there is digestion going on at least some bloodflow is diverted for that purpose, leaving less oxygenated bloodflow for supply to the working muscles.

So you’re a spitter then are you prf?

Minni - when I replied I was replying thinking it was Friday today, so I am no better…..

The carb rinsing article was interesting, though, the author still suggests digesting carbs is necessary for exercise lasting longer than an hour. Not sure it has changed my thinking on mid race Marathon nutrition. I will have a read of the other two articles this afty, if I get chance.

Just back from a lunchtime run of 5.67miles, got a bit carried away and ran the first mile in 6:57, average pace was 7:18/m on a hilly route with some off road. I was supposed to be taking it easy for Sunday!

17/01/2013 at 13:42

Tyler Hamilton was (IIRC) doped up to the eyeballs on PEDs and blood transfusions when he was pulling that particular training trick...

17/01/2013 at 13:54

Yes of course Jools but this was before he really got drawn into the postal service ways and was just trying to lose weight to increase power and thats how they used to do it. His power ratios where increasing all the time but he couldn't sit down as his bum had no fat at all on it!!!

6 miles very easy this morning, felt so tired tbh, def was 9mm plus. Then a drive 75 mins drive to marlow and back has finished me. Hoping coffee and lots of food will revive me before run tonight!

Coaching course on Sat cancelled so that gives me more time for running and getting kids homework done! Good brownie points there Keir. Hubbie and I have to take shifts for our training but luckily he commutes to work on his bike 20 miles so gets a good hour done each day and we own a treadmill so one runs outside and the other inside. DVDs, chocolate, pocket money for the kids??? Trouble is they are all useless at keeping secrets, maybe better to fess up!

Off to do some reading..... Housework can wait!

17/01/2013 at 14:02
Keir - over on the sub 3:30 we call that 9a running. We devised a 1-10 list of important factors when marathon training and then added in a 9a - sneaky running whilst supposed to be doing something else to keep the OH happy. I've even done 9a races when he thought I was at work!!
17/01/2013 at 14:10

LOL Minni!

17/01/2013 at 15:11

Keir - Nice to see that the strageic thinking is finely honed.

Yes, I've seen those articles before but, as with all running studies, I would take them with a pinch of salt.

Even though they pretty much support what I'm saying their scope is so limited and the 'scientific approach' so wishy washy that they cant really be taken seriously. I say this because I have been running long enough to have seen studies like these recommend one thing, then a few years later do an about turn based on 'more recent studies' and then later flip flop again. The truth is that the studies are just not long enough or detailed enough to be statistically significant.

There is also too much confirmational bias with things like this, ie you'll search out and believe articles that support your own views and dismiss the rest.

I would however place much more importance on observation of athletes like Meb and others that have gone before. But ultimately the only thing that counts is personal experience, ie how your own body responds to training strategies.

'Suck it and see' is the order of the day, especially whet it comes to 'spit or swallow' !


One thing that did intrigue me was how do you have one leg carb depleted and the other not?


YD - You're obviously chomping at the bit with the sound of today's run - that is the feeling you want to bottle ready for the start line at Manchester

Edited: 17/01/2013 at 15:26
17/01/2013 at 15:31

I assumed they would just train one leg when the body is in a depleted state and the other leg at another time when not in depleted state prf.

If I have read it right, the practical advice to runners in the Peak Performance article is basically, do 30 – 60 mins easy run say at lunchtime, then do not eat all afternoon and then do a high intensity workout at night.
Or easy run in the morning and high intensity session at lunchtime.
Or do I have it wrong, is it suggesting you do 30 - 60mins of easy running, followed directly by a high intensity session?

A slight aside, some of the high intensity sessions it recommends for Marathon runners are mental!
6 x 800 at mile pace with a 90 second recovery!
4 x 1200 at 3k pace with 3 mins recovery - not as mental but tough, especially when depleted
The other suggested sessions were quite doable, 2 x 2miles at 10k pace or 1 hour at 75% HRamx (a steady run, not that tough), bit of a weird mix.
I am sure we could come up with a more suitable hard session if we were to test the theory. I might try this next week, the combo of morning run, no breakfast and then a short high intensity session at lunchtime could be doable.

17/01/2013 at 15:38

Love the 9a Minni. At school we have Period 6 (5 period day - period 6 is the pub). FYI I had 1 free period today where I alternated 1 marked bit of c.wk with 1 website view. Helps to break it up and also means that I am mentally fresher to mark the final bit of c.wk as I am at the first one, otherwise I might mark the later stuff a bit harsher. But the websites were hunted down and scanned quickly whilst I was in charge of chess club. 

I was wondering about that 1 leg thing PRF. Also what are the long term implications for the athletes in the study of having 1 leg 90% stronger than the other? Running in circles for the rest of the season?

I am doing an 18 on Sunday and a 21 the following week - so as a suck and see I'll do one unfueled (although I will eat normally the night before).

17/01/2013 at 15:50
Keir wrote (see)

I was wondering about that 1 leg thing PRF. Also what are the long term implications for the athletes in the study of having 1 leg 90% stronger than the other? Running in circles for the rest of the season?

Quite useful for track running, as long as it was the right leg that was trained up!

Just read the Runners World article, it basically advocates the 30 – 60 min low intensity workout before breakfast, followed by the 1 hour workout at lunchtime containing some high intensity work Or doing some steady state runs before breakfast.

prf, yes, looking forward to racing now, it’s been over 6 weeks since my last race

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