RW Forum Six – Sub 2.50 Kier with Parkrunfan

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17/01/2013 at 15:11

Keir - Nice to see that the strageic thinking is finely honed.

Yes, I've seen those articles before but, as with all running studies, I would take them with a pinch of salt.

Even though they pretty much support what I'm saying their scope is so limited and the 'scientific approach' so wishy washy that they cant really be taken seriously. I say this because I have been running long enough to have seen studies like these recommend one thing, then a few years later do an about turn based on 'more recent studies' and then later flip flop again. The truth is that the studies are just not long enough or detailed enough to be statistically significant.

There is also too much confirmational bias with things like this, ie you'll search out and believe articles that support your own views and dismiss the rest.

I would however place much more importance on observation of athletes like Meb and others that have gone before. But ultimately the only thing that counts is personal experience, ie how your own body responds to training strategies.

'Suck it and see' is the order of the day, especially whet it comes to 'spit or swallow' !


One thing that did intrigue me was how do you have one leg carb depleted and the other not?


YD - You're obviously chomping at the bit with the sound of today's run - that is the feeling you want to bottle ready for the start line at Manchester

Edited: 17/01/2013 at 15:26
17/01/2013 at 15:31

I assumed they would just train one leg when the body is in a depleted state and the other leg at another time when not in depleted state prf.

If I have read it right, the practical advice to runners in the Peak Performance article is basically, do 30 – 60 mins easy run say at lunchtime, then do not eat all afternoon and then do a high intensity workout at night.
Or easy run in the morning and high intensity session at lunchtime.
Or do I have it wrong, is it suggesting you do 30 - 60mins of easy running, followed directly by a high intensity session?

A slight aside, some of the high intensity sessions it recommends for Marathon runners are mental!
6 x 800 at mile pace with a 90 second recovery!
4 x 1200 at 3k pace with 3 mins recovery - not as mental but tough, especially when depleted
The other suggested sessions were quite doable, 2 x 2miles at 10k pace or 1 hour at 75% HRamx (a steady run, not that tough), bit of a weird mix.
I am sure we could come up with a more suitable hard session if we were to test the theory. I might try this next week, the combo of morning run, no breakfast and then a short high intensity session at lunchtime could be doable.

17/01/2013 at 15:38

Love the 9a Minni. At school we have Period 6 (5 period day - period 6 is the pub). FYI I had 1 free period today where I alternated 1 marked bit of c.wk with 1 website view. Helps to break it up and also means that I am mentally fresher to mark the final bit of c.wk as I am at the first one, otherwise I might mark the later stuff a bit harsher. But the websites were hunted down and scanned quickly whilst I was in charge of chess club. 

I was wondering about that 1 leg thing PRF. Also what are the long term implications for the athletes in the study of having 1 leg 90% stronger than the other? Running in circles for the rest of the season?

I am doing an 18 on Sunday and a 21 the following week - so as a suck and see I'll do one unfueled (although I will eat normally the night before).

17/01/2013 at 15:50
Keir wrote (see)

I was wondering about that 1 leg thing PRF. Also what are the long term implications for the athletes in the study of having 1 leg 90% stronger than the other? Running in circles for the rest of the season?

Quite useful for track running, as long as it was the right leg that was trained up!

Just read the Runners World article, it basically advocates the 30 – 60 min low intensity workout before breakfast, followed by the 1 hour workout at lunchtime containing some high intensity work Or doing some steady state runs before breakfast.

prf, yes, looking forward to racing now, it’s been over 6 weeks since my last race

17/01/2013 at 15:54

YD - This is why these studies should be taken with a pinch of salt. We're trying to get the body to use fat efficiently as a fuel source during the early stages of a marathon. I have reaped the benefits from carb depletion by doing marathon specific training. Why would I want to go all middle distance specific because some article has thought up some random sessions?

Keir - Ah, you have me thinking now. When it gets to Summer and start track racing, running around in circles for the rest of the season is exactly what is planned.


x-post: YD - we're on the same wavelength!

Edited: 17/01/2013 at 15:56
18/01/2013 at 08:57

Hmmm not much of a rest day for me today then. Looks like building snowmen and sledging. Snow day!

Think it can be classed as strength training though!

18/01/2013 at 10:40

Woke with stiff upper body, quads and glutes from Weds core session. Dragged myself out for 11m inc 5m @ Mara effort. The first 2.5m were ok - 161bpm (84%), 6.32m/m but then my legs turned to wood and I struggled to keep the HR up. Finished with 5m 159bpm ave but only 6.46m/m. Feel cold now.

I think I am going to review my training for next week. I reckon it would be good to have a couple of rest days and feel really refreshed ready for the magic8. If the snow comes this wkend I might have to bring forward that rest and make up for it by a harder next wkend. 

18/01/2013 at 10:41

Coordination and balance Mitchie Moo

I am working from home today, I got selected to test out our Business Continuity plans for the day, just in case the snow causes travel chaos, it hasn’t and the sun is shining and I am ‘working’ from home!
The forecast is for snow overnight though, Brass Monkey on/off decision will be made early afternoon tomorrow, but I have a back-up long run planned with a clubmate who is also doing Brass Monkey. So I should be able to salvage something decent from the weekend.

What training or racing has everybody else got planned this weekend?

x-post Keir – still a decent workout, hope the cold feeling doesn’t develop into anything nasty.

Edited: 18/01/2013 at 10:45
18/01/2013 at 12:27

8 miles easy for me tomorrow and then 20 at a pretty steady pace too, just time on feet with a load of others from the club. They are doing 12 so will run into town and back again, should be about right. Will be 82 for the week I think or there abouts.

Club run last night was OK, managed 6:50s for 5 miles with mile warm up and warm down. Felt hard but it always does this stage in mara training. 6 miles easy in the morning too. Rest day today (from running anyway!)

Off out sledging now but still snowing so I predict an hour max for my wee girl before she starts crying!!

18/01/2013 at 12:29

Keir, sounds like you are tired. Have you got a roller, hot bath and some rolling I reckon and stretching. Good feed and you'll be right as rain. Must admit I always rest one day a week. Its a mental thing more than anything, but then I do double day 3-4 times a week.

I also get a sports massage every 2-3 weeks. This helps too

18/01/2013 at 12:36

Keir - still sounds like a good session, and I'm sure there is some fatigue carried over from you race

I moved my long run to this morning due to the forecast snow. Really glad I did it as the snow has taken a dump now. It was a long slow one all the way around, 75%HR. Planned to do 18m, ended up with 21m as footpaths began to disappear as the snow fell and I 'lost my way' a little. Felt tired today after yesterdays tempo effort, and an all out 10k rowing session on Wednesday.

18/01/2013 at 13:01

Snowing here at school so closing early. A hot bath sounds nice. I think I might need to start up the massage again MM. I used to have them when marathon training before. To be honest, I think doing that hard progressive 4m on Weds and then going straight into some intersive core work was just too much, especially after the race on Sunday. Also being bitterly cold didn't help. 

I heard last night that my friend who I meet most Sundays is going to postpone his sub 3 attempt at VLM until next yr due to health and work reasons, so all my training will be solitary now  . I am too fast for all in my tri-club, but I might look into joining a local running club for a few sessions.


Edited: 18/01/2013 at 13:03
18/01/2013 at 13:20
YD - I'm almost to the point of changing my BM plans to a 20m run. Just come home from work early while I could still get through.

Last night I went off road in the hills with the head torch. It was snowy and dark and cold and totally lush. It made me miss my hill running days.
18/01/2013 at 13:22
Keir - I do most of my training on my own. There's a group of 4 of us marathon training at the moment and I usually start with them but run most of the miles on my own.
18/01/2013 at 14:34

Sounds much worse up your way Minni. It hasn’t started snowing where I am (25 miles from York), it is starting to cloud over and is forecast to start early evening and snow through the night. So I can understand why they are leaving the decision until tomorrow afternoon. If it stays like it is now, conditions will be ok, a few bits of frost/ice on the ground, cold but ok really. It just depends if and how much snow falls tonight.

My running partner is quite unreliable, due to ongoing health issues with his wife, so plenty of my training is on my own. I have another clubmate who comes out for long runs sometimes, he is a 3:11 Marathoner, so ok for easy runs.

18/01/2013 at 14:46

Keir - I find when I'm into the habit of core training I can take it for granted but just a few slack weeks and a proper session gives me worse DOMS than most runs.  I haven't worked out whether this is wise or not but I tend to do core work-outs on the same day as quality sessions (Tuesday/Wednesday lunchtime with an evening run session) and this seems to work out OK.  Assuming I've got enough energy to do the run itself, any soreness will be most noticeable the following day, when I'll be scheduled for an easy run or rest.

I was wondering about the wisdom of doing another hard MP run last night (14.7 w/12 @ 5:54) since a few of us had planned a LR with some quality tomorrow, but looking at conditions it's unlikely to involve much speedy running, so I'm glad I bagged it when I could.

Take care out there! 

18/01/2013 at 16:47

I love running with the lads at the club. They really push me on my temp runs as I struggle to run hard by myself. Speed work too I like to be chasing or have someone pulling me along. If I can't make club I use my treadmill.

Sundays run will be sociable more than anything which is grand as I just need to run 20 miles no pace required.

Back home in the warm. Little lass managed 2 hours sledging and then got frozen and tired so home for hot chocolate.

18/01/2013 at 18:08
Keir. Have a wee rest. You're overdoing it a smidgen. Big picture and all that
19/01/2013 at 13:26

Rest today. No time for the 9a treadmill run. Too much cross training in the snow! 

19/01/2013 at 16:52

Yes indeed, it is important to be topping up resources at this stage, Keir, not running them down.

You're clearly up with the game so relax and enjoy the rest day.


Had a fun snow covered parkrun this morning. Obviously very relaxed but still managed to judge it well enough to make it progressive - 6:28, 6:19, 6:17.

In a pretty thich covering of thick snow I was pleased with how strong it felt.

No Brass Monkey tomorrow and no rearrangement either, just a straight cancellation. If nothing else it at least saves YD from taking another beating

Edited: 19/01/2013 at 16:53
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