RW Forum Six – Sub 2.50 Kier with Parkrunfan

I made the most of my day off by getting a lie-in, writing a bit more of my assignment, taking my middle child sledging and getting in a 16m run. First 4m with Yaktrax @ 8.20m/m - but this dropped to an average of 7.49m/m by the time I had got home as the final 12m were on clear tarmac. Legs tired. Not sure if that was because of the 20m yesterday or from running 16m in trail shoes on tarmac. Either way, all good strengthening stuff. 

Keir - Very positive that 20 milers are being brushed off easily enough. That is the main thing that we're looking for at this stage, ie being comfortable enough with distance that you can still train normally the next day.

A good platform to build the meatier stuff on top of in the next few weeks.....

This week (final preparation week before the magic8) training was going to look like this:

Mon - 5m easy
Tue - 8m inc strides
Wed - 14m inc 7m Mara effort
Thur - 5m easy
Fri - 10m inc final 4m @ 7:30, 6:40, 6:10, 5:50
Sat 8m XC
Sun 21m Hilly

However I felt a bit tired at the end of last week and was going to adjust this so I can start the following week fresh. Also, unexpectedly having today off work I got in 16m MLR. So I am thinking of this for the rest of the week:

Tue  - 5m easy
Wed - 14m inc 7m Mara effort
Thur - 5m easy / or rest
Fri- 5m inc strides
Sat 8m XC
Sun 21m Hilly

So essentially dropping the 10m progressive. As an alternative I could do this but drop the 7m @ Mara effort (85%bpm). What do you think PRF?

YD, prf et al - I see the BM isn't going to be rescheduled or refunded (I didn't expect either of these) but I also see they are not going to give guarantee entry to next year.   I thought this would have been a nice gesture under the circumstances.  Not that I'm too bothered.

Keir - you got the cutest little baby face.   Sounds like a great day off for you.  Mine was the only school in the country open!

Keir - Yes, that sounds a sensible move responding to how the body is reacting. I'd rather see the 21 miler being kept in than be too concerned about the faster end.

With the faster work it should really feel as though you're leaving it all a little bit too late. The reason being that the training adaptation response to sessions like the progressive 10 milers and fast finishing 22s is actually quite rapid in the overall scheme of things and as such there is more risk of peaking too early than not being ready in time.

Minni - Altough I am always keen to defend race organisers, especially from running clubs, I have to say that the justified line of 'remember we're just volunteers and are as disappointed as you', while being very true does start to be a bit less easy to accept when £40,000 of entry fees are involved.

What really surprises me is when races cancel and then say that they are going to have a meeting to discuss what to do about it. It is as if weather related issues in winter hadnt even crossed their minds.

parkrunfan wrote (see)

With the faster work it should really feel as though you're leaving it all a little bit too late. The reason being that the training adaptation response to sessions like the progressive 10 milers and fast finishing 22s is actually quite rapid in the overall scheme of things and as such there is more risk of peaking too early than not being ready in time.

Wise words. I was wondering if there was enough faster stuff, but I also don't want to be burning all my matches too early and I find that the faster stuff does do that.

Thanks for admiring my face Minni. Not sure about it being stuck to your groin area though! 

5m easy in the slush this morning. Drove 40m north to get to school and its 4 degress colder!

Lol Keir! Very odd.

These temperature differences are interesting over such short distances.

It isnt quite as dramatic but the prediction for when we visit Dublin on Saturday is for it to be 8c warmer than at home, that is quite a difference for a short flight.

A hilly 10 miler tonight @8:13/mile, which may not seem like anything to write home about but trust me there was a lot of evidence in that run of the aerobic improvements from the three 20+ milers in 10 days. A couple of weeks ago the same effort would have produced a 9min+ run on the same course.

Progress is very satisfactory

On my 6am run this morning I could smell heating oil all the way round. I kept sniffing my clothes, but couldn't smell anything on them, yet I could smell the same smell all the way round my 5 mile loop. 

x-post - Interesting that you are noticing the benefits from the 20 milers already PRF. I always thought that it takes around 3 weeks to receive the training benefits from a session. Do you think this is more of an efficency in stride, changes in perceived effort or actual cardio fitness gains?

edit - I keep forgetting to ask - How's the battle with the lurgy going YD? Recovered yet?

Keir - I tend to find the benefits come much quicker than that.

I find that low intensity 20+ milers that dont take much recovering from give a significant boost in days.

This was evident from the 70 miles in 2 days that we did last September and then a 5K comeback pb was produced 6 days later.

Obviously if more intensity was involved, recovery would be longer and the boost would come later.

To answer your question, it certainly improves running efficiency but you're also improving the power/weight ratio from both directions with these runs, ie increasing lean muscle mass and reducing overall weight.

I thought building endurance through low level training (baking the cake) took several months, yet higher intensity (icing the cake) was a much quicker process. Hense many training programmes having a large base period, building in intensity towards shorter, higher intervals. This was the reason I ran 1600m reps 6 weeks out - dropping in distance to 800m and right down to 200m just 2 weeks before the marathon.

Yet it is you are saying that low intensity has quicker training effects and the higher intensity takes longer as recovery is longer. That 70m in 2 days (or was it more of a case of 20 odd 5k intervals?) and 5k pb certainly look like lower intensity training has a quick impact on fitness. 

Interesting stuff. 

Thanks for asking Keir. I basically inhaled a whole bottle of First Defence over the last 7 or 8 days and the cold never left my nose and now it’s just about gone. I have finished the bottle now, but have another in the house just in case.

Interesting chat about how quickly improvements come. I have heard the 3 or 4 weeks thing, but like prf I have noticed quicker improvements off long runs and more markedly tempo runs. I reckon we are all different in that respect, the next runner might get a boost for all out lung bursting interval sessions. I wonder how much of it is mental, and you know a run or certain type of session will deliver a good fitness boost and as a result you feel more confident that you are getting fitter in the days after and project that into all aspects of your running. Just a theory, but confidence plays a big part in running well IMO.

Well, you're right but think of the aerobic base building as laying layer upon layer of aerobic improvement.

Each LSR boosts both the quantity and the size of each individual mitochondria but it takes several weeks to get anything close to a full load.

So while the benefits of an individual low intensity session are quick it takles a whole series of them to build the engine.

With high intensity sessions it takes less, ie 4-6, to bring to a peak, and the benefits are shorter lived before starting to tail off.

Hence the reason for getting the low intensity stuff in first and building higher intensity on top.

And to add another factor which is relevant to YD's 'we're all different' angle, I think it makes a big difference if you're just regaining recently lost aerobic capacity as opposed to either long lost or never had aerobic fitness.