RW Forum Six – Sub 2.50 Kier with Parkrunfan

Agreed with the last point prf made, its much easier getting fitness you once had back, than it is building it in the first place.

parkrunfan wrote (see)

Well, you're right but think of the aerobic base building as laying layer upon layer of aerobic improvement.

Each LSR boosts both the quantity and the size of each individual mitochondria but it takes several weeks to get anything close to a full load.

So while the benefits of an individual low intensity session are quick it takles a whole series of them to build the engine.

With high intensity sessions it takes less, ie 4-6, to bring to a peak, and the benefits are shorter lived before starting to tail off.

Hence the reason for getting the low intensity stuff in first and building higher intensity on top.

Great stuff. That short explanation really explains a lot. So I guess base building is more like a wafer than a cake. 

Delurking (briefly)!

prf - what you've described - i.e. a lot of long runs producing quick benefit - to me is very striking of what Lydiard used to do way back when. When one of his athletes was feeling stale, washed out or whatnot, he'd frequently get them to do 2 or 3 consecutive days of hilly 20+ milers as a slow pace - within a week or two they would be back to normal.

There's a ton of physiological reasons why exactly it works (or doesn't, depending on who you believe), but Lydiard's basic principle was "aerobic training recovers and restores" (if I can butcher his exact quote).

I'll keep quite now, I'm about as far removed from marathon training as there is 

ok. With the base building coming to an end and having taken onboard comments about the planned magic8 week training earlier, now could be a good time to start posting the training planned for the first 2 weeks of the magic8:

Week 1 w/c 28.1
2x11m MLRs
12m inc Progressive 10m (1.5m w/u 7m @7.15-6.45 then 6:15, 6:05, 5:50) 
Ashford 10k (total 14m inc warm up and recovery jog round afterwards) 
3x5m recovery runs

Total 65m

Week 2 w/c 4.2
12m MLR
12m inc Progressive 10m (1.5m w/u 7m @7.15-6.45 then 6:15, 6:05, 5:50) 
20m unfuelled
8m inc 3m @10k pace
3x5m recovery (or a rest day)

Total 67m

I am really looking forward to testing my form at the 10k. I haven't completed in a running race (as opposed to a duathlon) since early August! Last year this same event was 6 weeks later -  in mid March, and I was 2 sec slower than my 10k pb. It will be interesting to have a bench mark to measure my form. 

Duck - Bollocks to the relurking, all views are welcome. And you could be useful for that last little bit down The Mall.

But very interesting comments from Lydiard. I do tend to find that you get a boost from 20+ milers, including 26 milers, and have had some cracking track sessions or races a couple of days after one.

In fact, I ran a 10K comeback PB at 9am the day after completing a 22 miler at 8pm, so they cant take that much out of you!

And to get even sillier, Mike Gratton (and he may read this so might correct if not quite accurate) ran either the 2nd or 3rd fastest legs in the Natinal 12 stage road relay on a Saturday afternoon after completing a 23 miler in the morning.

Keir - They look like good weeks. We'll be doing a 10K, ie Dewsbury, the same day as Ashford so that will be interesting.

Just try not to fall into the trap of tapering in any way for races in the build up, we are marathon training so races are basically high intensity sessions along the way.

There is more benefit from running a fast 10K off a full week's training than there is running it off a taper and it looks like that is exactly what you have planned

parkrunfan wrote (see)

Keir - They look like good weeks. We'll be doing a 10K, ie Dewsbury, the same day as Ashford so that will be interesting.

Ah, so the smack down talk has begun! 

I would love to pb in the 10k of week 1, the HM in week 6 and the 10m on the friday after the magic8. However I do recognise that by running these sessions on full gas they will take a few days of recovery time and that a mini taper beforehand and recovery afterwards takes out a week of training. 

Instead what I have done is arrange the week leading up each event so that the key session is performed on the Wednesday, the shorter of the 2 MLRs on the friday and a recovery or strides session on Saturday. Does this sound ok?

Gotta love a bit of smackdown talk!!!

The 3m @ 10k pace are interesting sessions. Obviously prf uses parkruns for these, I guess doing a weekly parkrun was the inspiration for the session.
Keir I think you said there isn’t a parkrun local to you, so, I assume you are planning on doing them solo? Are you planning on any variations on the theme?
For example 3 or 4 x 1m at a similar intensity…

Nothing planned yet. I've just put them in because that is what I've been told to do! 

I haven't really thought about them yet, but I will probably need to think of a loop or flatish stretch nearby which I could run them on. If it was summer I would use the school field. If the worst comes to the worst I could use the dreadmill.

Since when does the word 'interesting' become smackdown talk?

Keir - Again, sounds okay as an outline but I'm not really overly concerned about the order that different sessions are done in. Feel free to switch things around according to how you feel on any particular day, dont feel committed to what you've planned at the start of a week.

You see a lot of agonising over getting sessions done because a schedule says it should be done or feeling guilty about missing a planned session. Who needs all that wasted mental energy?

For instance, today I thought I might have a go at a progressive 10 miler but right now I'm thinking of an easy 10 with an option of going on to 20 if it is flowing okay. I might then do a progressive 10 miler tomorrow.........or then again I might not.

Running is so flexible and carefree that it seems a bit daft to put too much inflexible structure to it, it is the sum total of training over several weeks that produces performances not what training was done on any particular day.

Keir - re-arranging so that the key session is earlier in the week sounds like a good plan to me.  I think it's very easy to part-accommodate races in the build-up as opposed to strictly "training through".  I suppose I can categorise my races pre-VLM into A, B & C:

A:  The duathlon, basically (VLM minus 6 weeks).  Proper week-long taper. The previous Sunday's LR will be easy pace, the Tuesday interval session will be half to two-thirds volume, Thursday tempo-lite, rest Friday/Saturday.
B: 10k, HM and 10 mile road races, + National XC. A mini-taper of sorts; front-load quality with a largely unaffected Tuesday interval session, and a shorter race-pace specific tempo session on Thursday (rather than larger volume MP run), rest/easy up to race
C: Couple of minor XCs: train through.

Taking the marathon plan as a whole, I can consider the mini- or full tapers as cut-back weeks.  They're generally three weeks apart, so I think this works quite well.

Yes, I'd echo that, Phil, in that if a mini taper can fit in naturally with a bit of a cutback anyway then all well and good. It just isnt worth losing training to try to peak for what are, in effect training sessions for the marathon.

Well the first 10 miles flowed nicely enough this evening, so ended up with:

A hilly 20.0 Miles in 2:45:51 (8:17/mile) - 1st 10 miles 1:24:20 (8:26), 2nd 10 miles 1:21:31 (8:09)

So thats four 20+ milers in 14 days, three 20s and one 23 with each feeling more comfortable than the previous one. Couldnt have gone any better really .

I am going by what PRF prescribed on the 10milers Fraser. They are a new session to me, so will go by whatever is instructed. They are progressiv ein themselves, but also get more intensive as the week progress. So far the plan looks like this:

Wk 1 - 1.5m w/u 7m @7.15-6.45 then 6:15, 6:05, 5:50
Wk 2 - 1.5m w/u 7m @7.15-6.45 then 6:15, 6:05, 5:50
Wk 3 - 2m w/u 5m @7.15-6.45 then 6:25, 6:20, 6:15, 6:05, 5:50
Wk 4 - 1.5m w/u then 6.45, 6.40, 6.35, 6.30, 6.25, 6.20, 6.15, 6.10, 6.05, 6.00
Wk 5 - None (recovery from 32miler main priority before progressive 20miler.
Wk 6 - 2m w/u then 6.45, 6.40, 6.35, 6.30, 6.25, 6.20, 6.15, 6.10, 6.05, 6.00
Wk 7 - 1.5m w/u then 6.45, 6.40, 6.35, 6.30, 6.25, 6.20, 6.15, 6.10, 6.05, 6.00
Wk 8 - 1.5m w/u then 6.45, 6.40, 6.35, 6.30, 6.25, 6.20, 6.15, 6.10, 6.05, 6.00
Wk 9 - 10m race 

I wasn't looking forward to todays session. Not sure why as I loved it when I got out there. 6.5m @ 7.44m/m - 137bpm (73%) on the cycle track. Then 7m @ 6.17m/m - 161 (85%) in 44min 6 sec on the track finished off with a 1m w/d.

Pleased to feel comfortable holding marathon HR (apart from 1 lap towards the end where I had to run through a painful stitch). I ran on the line between lanes 5 and 6 (as these were the furthest out I could go without hitting snow) and the pace is Garmin pace rather than accurate track measurements. Anyone know how much shorter / quicker the Garmin reads compared to the actual distance covered on a loop of the track?

I finished the evening off with the clubs core session. First of all we did the bleep test. I managed to break the clubs record by getting to 17.1 before quitting. I could have pushed it harder, but big picture and all that. 

Nice 20 miler from you again PRF. Another planned for the wkend?

Thought this might be an interesting list: (both have happened to me in the past 2 days)

'You know when you're marathon training when....'

- Colleagues at work tell you that you are looking gaunt and need to put on some fat

- Colleagues tell you that you look tired and should go home - instead you go for a 15m run with 7m @ MP - then do a further hour of core training.

Keir - Very nice indeed to hold that pace for that effort level, if you loved that then it suggests you are going to relish the progressive 10 milers.

When you consider the current state of fitness that that represents you must now be happy with the idea that 12 1/2 weeks is more than adequate time to get properly marathon ready?

Im looking forward to April 21st already - I reckon we're going to be seeing some big performances .

In terms of Garmins and tracks, mine consistently clocks up 1 mile 60 metres early, so it is around 4% out.

x-post : Lol Steve Way always says that he knows his training is going well when he gets the gaunt comments. The thing is that the people commenting dont realise that he takes it as a compliment.

Dont know about another 20 at the weekend, I'll be going with the flow, and that flow will predominantly a flow of Guiness Malahide parkrun in Dublin on Saturday followed by something on Sunday but we'll see.

I can't get my head around what 4% translates to in terms of pace - but if it recorded 6.17m/m then 4% must make it close to the desired 6.30m/m. 

Yes, very happy with my current ftness and I am amazed at the progression I have made over the past few months and excited about how much more there is to come as I have not really run much at Marathon effort yet, mostly below it so far.

I am really looking forward to this 10k on Sunday week. We need to discuss target pace at some point. 

Yep, 6:17 translates to about 6:30. That is assuming that your Garmin misbehaves to same extent as mine of course.

Keir wrote (see)

I am really looking forward to this 10k on Sunday week. We need to discuss target pace at some point. 

Aha, my favourite subject.....

To put it bluntly, 'target paces' are arse about face. Pace is the output not the input.

The input is effort level and this is where experience hard wires into the brain exactly where the line is that you need to stay on the right side of.

But, in basic terms, all races are approached in the same way by breaking the distance up into thirds:

1. The first third should feel like coasting and there should be no laboured breathing.
2. The second third should be moving into hard effort territory but with concentration on running form and efficiency of effort, ie no sudden changes in effort level and keeping all movement smooth.
3. The final third should be a red line effort but still trying to keep running form as tidy as possible. This is the section to make maximum use of drafting wherever possible to pull you along for less effort.

This should feel as though you have gradually worked up through the physical and mental gears but if you have got it right it will roughly equate to even pacing and you will have been overtaking runners for the final two thirds.

Any calculated theoretical pace is going to be wrong for one reason or another whereas the correct effort level is always going to be, er, correct. Wind, undulations, congestion etc etc are all automatically catered for with an effort level approach whereas a 'target pace' approach is thrown off course as soon as anything is other than perfect.

My target for Dewsbury is to keep YD in sight to make sure he doesnt get to McDonalds and eat all the McFlurries before I get there.

As the consummate afleet that I am prf, I will not be eating those, ice baths (dip in the Calder) and recovery shakes (pint of milk shaken up) for me after Dewsbury.
Anyway, enough sandbagging already, I fully expect you to be on my tail at the turnaround

Keir, liking the 10 miler framework you posted. You do realise it will change as soon as you have a couple under your belt?
Excellent session last night, also to get an hour of core work in and then 17 on the bleep test afterwards is hardcore. I am sure prf is approving of your robustness.

The A,B,C race idea you have is a good one Phil and is roughly the way I will be approaching racing in this campaign.

Good miles and pace progression (last night and over the last week) prf

'You know when you're marathon training when....'

- Colleagues at work tell you that you are looking gaunt and need to put on some fat

- Colleagues tell you that you look tired and should go home - instead you go for a 15m run with 7m @ MP - then do a further hour of core training.

-Colleagues that have eventually grasped that you are training for a Marathon stop asking if you went for a run last night and start simply asking how far you ran last night

I assume you mean the pace for each mile will get quicker YD? That reminds me, I must sort out my Garmin. I cannot upload data into Sportstracks or Training Centre to see splits. I thought it was my work laptop, but now suspect a faulty Ant+ stick.

Is the duathlon the spring ball buster Phil. Is so are you looking for a top 5 this time?

'You know when you're marathon training when....'

- Colleagues at work tell you that you are looking gaunt and need to put on some fat

- Colleagues tell you that you look tired and should go home - instead you go for a 15m run with 7m @ MP - then do a further hour of core training.

-Colleagues that have eventually grasped that you are training for a Marathon stop asking if you went for a run last night and start simply asking how far you ran last night

- When you are have a cold (fat) people say it is your own fault because you exercise.