RW Forum Six – Sub 2.50 Kier with Parkrunfan

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24/01/2013 at 14:06

lol at Hounds of Love, sounds like we are starting to get our own thread vocabulary going. Next you will see post saying “Last night I did 14M W/ 10m @ Hounds of Love”

24/01/2013 at 15:27
On the subject of "you know you are in marathon training when.." Anyone ever had this conversation...?
24/01/2013 at 15:38

The hounds of love are calling 

Unfortunately very similar ones SJ.

Good mileage there MM. How were the 4x1.5m @ 6.30s? Is your PMP 6.40? BTW - Did your husband cycle the 400km by himnself? The furthest I managed solo was 195m and that was a long, summer day followed by an evening TT. I did do 264m in a 12hr, but race conditions are different. I am really impressed that he managed 400km in the winter (and especially after a 4km swim and before a 4km run). How long did it take him to recover (assuming he has)?


A well needed rest day for me today. Does anyone else struggle to sleep after a hard evening training session?

But resting is strange. When I used to run 3 days per week, I would feel guilty if I missed a day, and elated if I ran 4 rather than the planned 3 days.

Now I am running 7 days most weeks, I feel guilty if I only run 6, but elated if I run 7 including a double (8 sessions) Is this the slippery slope mindset which leads to 14 sessions per week? 

24/01/2013 at 15:39

prf - I largely agree with you about pace being the output rather than the input, although I tend to have a minor caveat reserved for the marathon.  Assuming I get to race day having a pretty good indicator of what I'm capable of, I'll have in mind a predicted pace which I'll use to make sure I'm not going too fast.  I think the marathon is set apart from race distances which we mortals run closer to threshold on a more regular basis (5k up to HM) in that it's just that bit easier to get carried away in the first half, because the correct pace really should feel too easy.  Maybe there's a chance you're holding yourself back from a real break-through performance but I think generally we're all experienced enough to have a reasonable idea of the best case scenario time, so percentage wise I think it is worth having a maximum allowable pace in mind.  If you get to 22 miles and still smiling, it's obviously kitchen sink time!

Keir - It's the Dambuster Duathlon, the national champs (standard distance, 10k / 40k / 5k) so standard will be pretty high. Both the V40s who beat me at Ballbuster are entered, so I think I'd be happy with a top 4 age group, which is the benchmark for a guaranteed slot for the world or euro champs.  But a medal would be nice!

Edited: 24/01/2013 at 15:49
24/01/2013 at 16:00

Oh I love my rest day each week and don't feel at all guilty. It energises me if anything as I think on a thursday. Yes rest day, job done for 48 hours. Whoop Whoop!

6:30s felt ok, harder than it should have done as have this yucky cold, but OK. I can knock out mile reps around 6-6.15 min miling, but no need just now.

He had help for all the bike apart from 50 miles. I was seriously worried about him before the 2nd of the 20k runs, he looked shocking. But he was the last man standing on the dance floor at his 40th birthday party afterwards!!!

He is fine now tbh. Had a week off and back to it. Currently deciding what his first V40 race is going to be.

24/01/2013 at 16:21

This thread has gone to the dogs!

SJ - I'm sure that type of conversation happens all the time, the incredulity of the non-runner about the pointlessness of marathon running.

I could have the same conversation with a fisherman -  you sit there for hours and then when you catch one you throw it back? Why? Etc  etc

Most things are actually ultimately pointless but if we didnt do pointless stuff there wouldnt be much left..... fornication and eating probably!

Keir - Not too surprising that you'd find it hard to sleep while still buzzing after an evening session. It is also difficult to concentrate on mundane work wirhin say an hour of doing an early morning or lunchtime hard session, the mind needs time to get back on an even keel.

I think I'll be joining you in a rest day today and although it will be the second in four days I never have any qualms about having one if it feels right on that particular day.

Having done the four 20+ milers in the last 14 days and with a 10 day period starting on Saturday that will include 7 races/speed sessions I think a rest day is entirely justified and appropriate.

Phil - Thats an interesting take but do you not think that running to pace could be the very thing that could prevent a breakthrough performance? You may be flowing along quite nicely at the correct effort level but looking at a watch could cause one of two things to happen:

a) slowing down because the clock says you are overcooking things.

b) speeding up because the clock says you are behind schedule.

Both scenarios could well take you away from the correct effort level that your body has naturally settled into. Maybe...?

24/01/2013 at 20:28
Interesting stuff re racing ( or even training hard sessions) to pace or effort. I'm certain the evil garmin holds me back and messes with my mind during races

Have come round to doing anything less than mara distance without it. Next stage will be having the gonads to stand at the start line of a marathon without one

The world would be a boring place if we all liked the same things. The running does seem to divide opinion "marmite" style though. Have to say when one or two of my pals start their golf anecdotes I struggle not to glaze over. I can see how it can become all consuming too though - all about the numbers. Very very easy to become a tiresome running bore too.

When will you be starting your series of reflective metaphysics lectures PRF??
24/01/2013 at 20:43

My initial response to the self pacing strategy is 'yes but...'

After a bit more thought about what that but is, is that I start too fast in races. I sart on the 2nd or 3rd row usually, and although the mojority all start faster than me, I still am too quick. I have realised that there is a guy from my old club who has perfect pacing and is always about half a minute faster than me over 10k. But despite telling myself beforehand to stay on his heels, I always end up with 100m lead after a couple of miles and he then comes past and drops me just after half way. Without a Garmin or this particular runner, I think my pacing would be all over the place.

Also, although this is an argument of running to feel, the course is undulating with a flat 1k, downhill 2k, flat 1k, uphill 1k, downhill 1k, steep uphill 1k, flat 2k, downhill with a kick at the end final 1k. So being able to judge effort is a bit difficult. 

Ultimately what I have done in the past for most races is start with a target time in mind, run to that over the first 1/4 of the race and review how I feel at that point. The trick is keeping my head together to hold that pace back over the early easy miles. Not a problem for a marathon when I respect the distance, but can be an issue in other races. 

24/01/2013 at 20:48

MM - 2nd 20k? Did you make a typo on your original post? Was it 4k / 400k / 40k run rather than 4k run? 


parkrunfan wrote (see)

Having done the four 20+ milers in the last 14 days and with a 10 day period starting on Saturday that will include 7 races/speed sessions

Sounds like a classic periodisation plan - 2 weeks of endurance 1 week of speed! But I am glad you haven't got me on that programme!

Also, I'm starting to like the sound of the fornicating and eating sessions. 


24/01/2013 at 21:36

Not tapering for  B and C races, pacing on feel, slow and easy miles, some progressive long runs later in the campaign to bring on a late peak, who'd have thought it. It's supposed to be rocket science isnt it !

PRF - its a shame that you have a club vest and a Garmin. I like the rest.

keir - it's way too early in the campaign for folks to be telling you that you look tired or gaunt. No over reaching and no burning out !

24/01/2013 at 21:57

Interesting posts re. pacing.  I have tried all methods - predetermined pace, running to the pace of my rivals, heart rate running and latterly just `knowing' what is the right effort level for the day.  I must say that the last stage has given me the most satisfaction.  The last two marathons I have done - a 2:45 VLM and 2:42 Hull (25.9 marathon) were run entirely to feel.  As PRF will testify I didn't even have the benefit of mile markers on the latter race.  Both were very well judged efforts.

But then I do have the benefit of racing consistently over the last 14 years.  My inner self can judge how far I have run, what pace I have run at and what effort level.  Cheaper than a Garmin too.

24/01/2013 at 22:07

I'm surprised BR didn't mention his 1:59.59 without a watch at Essex 20

24/01/2013 at 22:09

When runners say that to me, I'll listen a bit more carefully TR. 

Ah, the Delphi 'Know thyself' technique. As you say BR, that must be the best way for any endurance exercise, but certainly requires years of experience (and thereby getting it right and wrong) to be effective.

However, Garmin pacing doesn't consider the terrain or conditions on the day and competitor pacing doesn't consider how tired or fresh you are in relation to them. HR pacing can be affected by all of these.

So I suppose a combination of all is the best (but unsatisfactory) way. 

24/01/2013 at 22:20

One way I found of locking in what a pace should feel like was to do plenty of track work - long reps at HM, Marathon and Marathon + pace.  Therefore when it came to the start of a race, I could envisage myself running on the track and know what it would feel like on that first lap when running the correct pace - ie easy.  So I ran that effort in the race and would eat up my opponents.  PRF may also like to recount a NYD parkrun at Glasgow...

24/01/2013 at 22:26

TR - The club vest and Garmin were both thrust upon me after much resistance

Yes, I can confirm that BR didnt have the assistance of mile markers for that 2:42 effort, I'm sure it was just an oversight as the rest of the organisation went swimmingly....

Keir - Yes, it takes experience but the sooner you learn the skill the happier you will be. It does involve overcooking and undercooking enough times for the correct effort level to become second nature. One thing it will do though is to make you much more content to be patient in races. I'm sure YD will readily confirm that his pacing skills have improved dramatically over the last 12 months or so and no doubt enjoys his racing much more as a result.

25/01/2013 at 13:55

Yes Keir, he did 4km swim, 200km bike, 20km run. Had some dinner and went to bed. Got up at 7am did 200km bike and 20km run. I was very worried about him as just before the second 200km he was dry retching in the bathroom and struggling to keep food in. Nutter! Has raised £2k though and seems to have gained some fitness from it, although his knee is still delicate but thats from a bike accident the week before the challenge!!! We are both nuts and get told so frequently . I dread to think what our kids will be like, but I can see the determination gene in all of them already!!

Full of cold since my 16-miler yesterday, no wonder I felt so awful. Went to bed at 9pm last night and do feel slightly better now but still full of snot and coughing. Hoping to get my miles done this weekend but we'll see. Going away so will be a matter of squeezing the runs in. My brother is a runner, (slower but still runs 5 times a week) though so he gets it!!!

Must admit I have ran races without a watch or garmin usually because I have forgotten to charge it up or it does that strange thing of switching itself on overnight and losing all is charge!! I ran Bramley in 2009 without a watch, running at what I hoped was 7:45s for 5 miles, 7:15s for 5 miles then ramped it up to 6:45s for the last 10. I had a chap running next to me who shouted out the odd mile splits and it was pretty bang on. So yes I agree with BR if you know yourself and how you run, you can get the pace without a watch or HR.

I look tired and gaunt today, but am ill, so thats fine and us girls can slap on a bit of mascara and lippy and we look loads better !!

25/01/2013 at 14:04


Anyone travelling on the Northeast line - tickets are released for travel on the Friday.  I've just booked four tickets for £58 from way up norf.


25/01/2013 at 14:14
Mitchie Moo wrote (see)

I look tired and gaunt today, but am ill, so thats fine and us girls can slap on a bit of mascara and lippy and we look loads better !!

Thanks. If things get bad I might try that tip 

Cheerful Dave    pirate
25/01/2013 at 16:08

Another vote for not racing with a gps.  Particularly pointless in races with mile markers, and a definite no-no at races like VLM where they're notoriously inaccurate.  If you're trying to check pace mid-mile then you're doing it too often, IMO. 

26/01/2013 at 20:10

8.5m @ 8m/m today. Legs felt very heavy for some reason. I guess that is what happens when you take a rest and easy day beforehand. 

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