RW Forum Six – Sub 2.50 Kier with Parkrunfan

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05/02/2013 at 20:42
Chick, ta for the name check. It's comforting to know we all have the same basic values. And even my virtual pal Arnie popping in with sound, reassuringly non-scientific advice
Keep on keeping on........
05/02/2013 at 20:47
PRF - i haven't decided on my wardrobe for Sunday yet I'm not part of a running club so don't have any particular colours. I suspect I will have my striped brown beanie hat on and a black @ white Ron hill jacket.
05/02/2013 at 21:02

Wow! Busy on here today. Well done PRF on keeping your end up. I’ve been flat out at work today so no lunch break to check emails or the thread. Pleased to see looks of new posters (and even TR’s come out of the closet). 

The early mornings are a little struggle PRF, but habit seems to be the key. However I am much happier (and more likely) running in the morning compared to going out in the evening after getting all drowsey doing the bathtime / bedtime story and listening out for 30mins routine.

That said, Weds is my ‘night out’ so will run straight after work and go straight to the tri clubs core session afterwards. Getting up Thurs morning at 6am is pretty difficult after getting home at 9pm. (BTW - I will be swapping round Weds and Fri's planned sessions).

 

Talking of the McMillian calculator – it used to be brilliant. Just plug in your latest race time and it would predict your comparible time at a whole range of other distances and detailed paces for different types of runs based on your recent pb. But sometime around Xmas they seem to of modernised it, and now it is shite! 

Has anyone signed up for McMillian’s coaching tips and can you access the ‘old’ calculator if you pay?

 

Run slow to speed up sounds crazy - but has worked for me this year. I started HADDing in November which allowed me to build up to 50mpw very quickly. Soon I noticed my paced dropped for the same HR. For example I ran 11m @ 142bpm (75%) at 8.11 m/m in mid Dec and the same run (same route) this morning at same HR came out at 7.52 m/m (with slightly tired legs from the 10k).

Posted before, but this and this are good HADD resources to read. 

 

 

05/02/2013 at 22:22

Keir - I can see how the routine lends itself to the early morning runs and tbh I found even the hard quality sessions were just as productive early mornings.....once the routine was established.

I suppose morning running is closer to what we actually do when racing than evening runs.

 

Didnt realise the McMillan calculator had changed but it is simple enough to work out conversions anyway - just add 15secs/mile for each distance increase, ie 5K, 10K, HM, Mar. The relationship works well until you get to the marathon, where 15 secs/mile slower than HM pace is only achieved by a small percentage.

Nice to see more evidence of the benefits of getting the slower miles in

And good to see flexibility being used with the scheduling.....

06/02/2013 at 08:12
I am in early morning bracket too. But weds I now get to run in the daylight as little un in preschool now. I do find I don't hit paces so well when I can't see. So try not to do quality runs first thing. Although saying that I need to do 10 progressive Tom at 5.30 so we'll see how that is.

Below par last night but we all struggled in the wind. Mile reps about 6:30 pace, half mile reps got up to 6-6.10 but still a struggle. 15 today. I'm tired!

I am always juggling schedules given my life style. Key is to keep the right sessions each week.
Cheerful Dave    pirate
06/02/2013 at 08:50
parkrunfan wrote (see)

Didnt realise the McMillan calculator had changed but it is simple enough to work out conversions anyway - just add 15secs/mile for each distance increase, ie 5K, 10K, HM, Mar. The relationship works well until you get to the marathon, where 15 secs/mile slower than HM pace is only achieved by a small percentage.

Yes, that would imply a conversion of double HM time + 6:30 or so, way short of the usual rule of thumb additions of 10 mins or 10%.  The very elites would be within that, but very few others, as you say.

06/02/2013 at 09:07

I guess it is more of a curved line rather than a straight % when it comes to HM to Marathon conversion. - The slower the runner, the greater the % of HM time. It would be interesting if someone used all the stats on Morgahan's Maraton time predictor thread to analyse this. 

Edited: 06/02/2013 at 13:03
Cheerful Dave    pirate
06/02/2013 at 09:47

That would give you a real world range of conversions, but would include all those marathons that didn't go to plan, to put it mildly.  The difference between a poorly executed half and a good one is rarely more than a few minutes, but get it wrong at the longer distance and it can be much, much more.  Predictors are looking for the best possible marathon time based on a half time.

Of course, you could look at it the other way and say that the vast majority of runners over-perform at HM, based on their marathon times.

06/02/2013 at 09:59

Keir - Not a big fan of the new McMillan format myself, but more to the point, I'm still convinced the calculator itself has changed, stretching out the conversion rate, so that predictors for shorter distances are too aggressive.  Of course, the flip side is that his marathon predictor is a little more generous and IMO effectively adds in a small amount of wiggle room, but is probably still somewhere between a "best case scenario" and any figure that you ought to think about using as an actual target.

If you want to get really bullish, why not work out your equivalent WAVA age-graded equivalent performance from a shorter distance.  According to my 10k time on Sunday (33:07) I'm on for a sub-2:30!  *rofl* etc...

Cheerful Dave    pirate
06/02/2013 at 10:24

It goes the other way too PP: according to last year's marathon time I should have been able to knock out a sub-17 min parkrun!  *rofl* etc....

Cheerful Dave    pirate
06/02/2013 at 10:28

Mind you, the new Mcmillan suggests 16:22 for 5k and a 34 min 10k.  Even if I spent the next 6 months training specifically for those distances I wouldn't get anywhere near those times.

06/02/2013 at 13:00

Agreed the new McMillan is rubbish. However , I find the conversion has always been pretty accurate for me in the 5k – 10mile range and not too bad for HM after I had a few cracks at getting my HM time in line. WAVA on the other hand scares me when I look upwards from my 5k and 10k times.

Conversions to 5k, 10m, HM and Mara from 10k pb of 35:24:

McMillan:         17:03 - 59:10 - 1:18:55 - 2:46
Howard Grubb: 17:00 – 57:35 – 1:17:08 - 2:42

I would fancy my chances on the McMillan predictions up to half, the WAVA 5k seems ok to me, but the rest 

Edited: 06/02/2013 at 13:07
06/02/2013 at 13:15

YD - You're capable of 57:35 and 1:17:08, I'm not sure why you think they're out of reach, that was quite a breakthrough performance on Sunday.

As for the 2:42 for the marathon, that all depends how you take to the marathon but admittedly it looks the toughest of all the predictions.

06/02/2013 at 13:49

Thanks for the vote of confidence prf, it looks like I might have a couple of opportunities in March to prove it either way.
I suppose my caution when it comes to the HM stems from my experience at the GNR when I blew up at 9 miles when chasing what was to my mind a sensible target.

06/02/2013 at 21:32

Motivation down to 3 / 10 today. Didn't fancy running. But zipped up the man suit and got on with it. Very cold wind. 1.5m w/u @ 7.43m/m (bit too fast really) then should have been 7m between 6.45 - 7m/m. Started a bit quick at 6.40m/m and legs were really burning after 2.5m. I guess this was still Sunday and the cold in the legs. Stopped, thought of PRF running another 10k tonight and told myself to man up. No slower though as next 4.5m @ 6.39m/m but felt better. 

Then 3m progressive: 1m @ 6.16m/m 162bpm (85%) / 1m @ 6.00m/m 168m/m (88%) / 1m @ 5.39m/m 175m/m (92%). Lots of coughing up clear phlem after the session but good to get it done. Finished off with 1hr of tri club circuits. 

06/02/2013 at 22:33

Keir - How you managed that on a 3/10 motivation level is a minor miracle. But what a confidence booster to get it done when it just didnt seem on.

Hopefully the phlegm stuff is just clearing out the remnants, there clearly isnt much wrong with the performance output.

Very positive news

 

Tonights 10,000m was a wind affected affair with the back straight into a pretty strong headwind. But since it is all about effort levels rather than times the wind didnt really affect the value of the session.

The plan was to try to run each 5 lap block progressively after a 6 mile warm up - it felt strong and controlled but the wearing effect of the wind just didnt allow for the acceleration towards the end.

38:29 - 7:42, 7:41, 7:38, 7:46, 7:42

Very happy though, it was a stronger performance than Sunday's 38:12 and with 34 miles sandwiched in between shows conditioning is coming along nicely.

The last 5 days have consisted of 55 miles, of which 15 have been around the 6 min/mile mark - the kind of workload that will reap dividends down the line. No need for absolute speed yet.

 

07/02/2013 at 09:26

Keir, Well manned-up! I had to give myself a talking to just to get out for a recovery run!

PRF, As you say the quality / quantity combination is bound to pay off. Will be watching for your mara result with more than a keen interest.

7M with hills + 4M recovery yesterday. Tempo at lunchtime.

07/02/2013 at 09:30

Keir, I agree with prf, 3 / 10 on the motivation scale and to then go on and deliver those last three miles is impressive.  Did you enjoy the session once you got a few miles into it?

prf – good going that, I imagine running round a track in those conditions would have been sapping mentally, did you have any company or did it end up a solo effort. An impressive block of training over the last few days as well, good to see.

15m w/ 10m @ MP for me last night. Quite blowy out, but I managed to pick a reasonably sheltered route so it wasn’t too much of a chore to get it done. MP feels ok, certainly not the TT effort TR describes.

So a good nights training for us all then!

07/02/2013 at 13:01
Y D wrote (see)

So a good nights training for us all then!

I'd go further than that - in Charlie Spedding's words, it was a PERFECT nights training for all of us. By that he means that nobody would have had a 'better' night by running faster, the purpose of the sessions was achieved, so 100% perfect

YD - Not mentally tough at all tbh. And I did have company, a young man who sat on my shoulder from the gun to lap 18 and then found some acceleration to find a few seconds at the end. I cant fault his strategy but the slapping of feet behind was getting a bit annoying after 18 laps - I was glad when he went.

07/02/2013 at 13:36

Good positive thoughts there PRF. I am very impressed by your 20s and then 5-10ks all together in such a short space of time. As impressive as it is unconventional. Last night was a really good run with Sunday still in the legs. 

I am glad you are running 38.xx though. I was a bit down after Sunday's result and it is easy to lose positivity and confidence sometimes. With Phil and YD posting such impressive times, it can cause doubts that I am behind where I am meant to be.

To be honest, I felt great through January, but have felt tired and lacking enthuasism a bit the past 10 days whilst I have had and with getting over the cold. Sore throat again this morning and 5m were tough going in the cold wind with tired legs, but I have been here before and it is just a case of pushing through it and soon I will break through and hit a purple patch. I am trying to be careful and listen to my body, but it is a fine balance. Looking forward to running long on Sunday.

YD - That is the 2nd indicator in 3 days - perhaps your PMP is set to low?

Edited: 07/02/2013 at 13:37
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