RW Forum Six – Sub 2.50 Kier with Parkrunfan

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11/02/2013 at 13:30

Fat, it’s just extra fuel, and seeing as I am building a fat burning machine it might be useful in April

Pace for long run was 7:49/m, quicker than it felt. I didn’t pay any attention to the HR stats but looking back HR started to rise a bit after 10 miles and then went up again at 16 miles. This tallies with my memory of the run, starting to feel like this was going to be hard work from 9 miles and the last 4 miles being a real slog.
Sluggish 4 miles just banked, but less soreness than last nights run.

Good to see the menthol toughnes in good order this morning Keir. As for the fast twitch thing, those hill strides you are doing will give you some of that I would have thought. 

Edited: 11/02/2013 at 13:36
11/02/2013 at 14:49

YD, Typically good weekend's running and weekly mileage from yourself. Who's Alan Bennet?

Keir, Got a voucher, but it's not gonna change my life.

Had a very easy 4 lengths in a 25m pool and 2x6mins in the sauna. Felt strange to be sub-aerobic in the gym!

11/02/2013 at 15:07

Brian - Excellent effort yesterday, it is a tricky course and conditions were not entirely pleasant yesterday, so 1:26 is probably worth about a 1:23-1:24 on a flat course in decent conditions. It sounds like you're taking an experienced approach to the calf scenario.

In terms of the parkrun course comparisons, it is just for personal amusement but you get a pretty accurate feel for the relative merits of each course when you have 88 under the belt. Most people overestimate how much the difficulty of a course adds to the time. For instance, there are no courses at all that classify as a minute slower than our +0 benchmark at Hull. Another example is Leeds is a +10 and yet if you ask around nearly everyone estimates it to be at least 30 secs slower than a flat course.

YD - We'll reassess the Dewsbury classification once you've run a 17:52 on it. Deal?

Btw The day to be there is on Saturday. I cant remember having advance declarations of out and out attempts on both male and female course records at any parkrun before. The winner of the Liversedge HM yesterday was not pleased to have lost his share of the Dewsbury record on Saturday so has declared an attempt on a 15:30. That sounds nigh on impossible but he does have the pedigree for it.

Good luck with York, you should be pretty close to 17 in the absence of wind!

And excellent training over the weekend, good to see you getting back into the tiring stuff after nailing the 10K.

Keir - It wasnt my fault on the extended run front - I was led astray to maximise our viewing positions for the Liversedge HM and also for a change to dry clothes at halfway. I would have been quite happy with 20

Love the approach to this morning's run but it is true that once you're wet, you're wet, you may as well carry on.

YD - You have enough fat in your little finger to fuel a marathon so that is no excuse for your Eric Pickles physique

11/02/2013 at 15:49

PRF, Any idea on Bradford's Parkrun handicap? Is Hull faster than York then?

I agree on the +3 mins for Liversedge, but I don't necessarily agree with your assessment of the conditions. The first hour or so the conditions were as good as I've known them (have run Liv 4 or 5 times). Very little wind or precipitation, under foot was good too. It did get a bit breezy/sleety the last 3 or 4 miles, and this made it colder and slower.

I have entered Thirsk 10M as a 59.xx attempt.

11/02/2013 at 16:05

Brian - I seem to remember Bradford being +20, again not as much as you would expect because the uphills are relatively steep and the long sweeping downhill relatively shallow, which is a good combination time wise.

York is +10, +5 because it is a little long as +5 because it is mentally tougher to break up the efforts than Hull.

Looking forward to Thirsk, a great race if conditions are benign!

11/02/2013 at 16:08

That +20 does fit in with what I was thinking - cheers!

11/02/2013 at 17:03

Brian – Alan Bennet is also know as Alan Bennett -

I haven’t sampled Bradford parkrun yet, but intend to do so, agree with the York, Leeds and Hull parkrun comparisons. Another good fast Northern parkrun is Middlesbrough Albert Park, I would put it on a par with York.

prf – ok it’s a deal, though I reckon a 17:34 is required at Dewsbury to prove my theory

I have done some mileage sums, if I do the planned 7 miles tonight I will have a 7 day rolling total of 77.72 miles. If I do the planned 7 tonight and 15 tomorrow, my 7 day rolling total will be 83.41 miles. If you had said to me in December that I would be seeing those numbers I wouldn’t believe you.
If I keep that up I reckon those Erik Pickles jowls will be gone in no time!

11/02/2013 at 17:41

I'm even heavier than YD and am the same height.

Keir - not much change in my knee, but I am getting more miles in so maybe I'm managing it better. Last week was a 20, 5+10, 7+10 and 6 in my 4 running days. Biggest week since last VLM. Y'day was 20 slow on the hill, today was 5+5. My previous 2 long runs were a bit progressive as it eases my knee, but I was happy to bag a slow one this week. Progressive running is such a burner of matches that I'd rather save. I would like a build up race in March, but if it doesnt happen then no sweat. My VLM race plan wont change anyway, its simply to run at a pace that I think I can hold for the best part of 26.2M ! I'm pretty sure I will still have enough leg speed in there to run something under 6:40s to get me 2:55 ish, given enough impact miles between now and race day.

12/02/2013 at 07:02
parkrunfan wrote (see)

Minni - You cant complain with that as a marathon training weekend. It should provide a nice boost forward when it beds in.

Is that the way it works?   In that case I hope it beds in nicely for my half in three weeks time.  I had a rest day yesterday which was just as well as I felt I'd run a marathon.   I'm going to take it easy this week - I'm busy and have done a lot over the last few weeks but then I'm on holiday next week so can get stuck in again. 

Keir - you on holiday next week too?  Although with all those kids it might be easier at school?!!


12/02/2013 at 09:39

YD, Aah that Alan Bennett! Does he do Parkruns?

Zero yesterday, and another zero planned today.

12/02/2013 at 12:03

YD - That is actually probably more accurate, 17:34 it is then...

Brian - Caution seems well placed and a couple of rest days never did anyone any harm as you know.

And you dont listen to The parkrun Show then?

TR - Love the uncomplicated approach. It is so true about the needlessly wasting mental effort, even when doing harder/faster sessions they shouldnt become 'resource destroyers'. Build up dont break down seems to sum it up.


And on that subject, just had a look at the long runs for the last 31 days up to Sunday. There were 7 LSRs with an average length of 20.42 miles.

The paces were 9:28, 8:28, 8:36, 8:17, 8:44, 8:19, 9:25

So, all very relaxed, in fact some people would say downright slow, but the end result is:

1. I feel very strong as a result.
2. With no actual speedwork, this 'slow' stuff has got me back to within about 10 secs/mile of comeback PB paces despite still carrying additional weight as mentioned previously.
3. I'm loving the training at the moment and just cant wait to get stuck into the rest of the VLM build up.

I suppose the main message from this is just how unimportant the pace of the LSRs is at this stage of the campaign. More pace would more than likely mean:

1. Less LSRs (due to longer recoveries)
2. Less mitochondrial growth
3. And to quote TR more 'burnt matches'.

Edited: 12/02/2013 at 12:06
12/02/2013 at 21:16

Take it easy TR. That is an impressive mileage, but running on an injury is like ice skating on a tightrope. Take care. 

Yeap, 1/2 term next week Minni. Luckily a slightly easier week planned as a bit of an epic LSR entered for Sat night. We are going on day trips out on Tues and Thurs and I have the kids all day Mon, so trying to juggle training round that should make things interesting. 

Keep resting and don't rush it Brian. Hope the massage sorts things tomorrow.

PRF - I have my fast finish 22m LSR on Fri. Plan for final 4m is 7:30, 6:40, 6:10, 5:50. Considering what you said above, and 2 days ago my 22m LSR was 7.31m/m, what pace should I cap the rest of the run at?

Tired (again) this morning. Although in the 14m I had hoped to run 5m @ 7.15-6.45 followed  by 6:25, 6:20, 6:15, 6:05, 5:50, I was mentally and physically (legs) too tired to lift the first 5m above 7.30m/m. Realising this I backed off and ran the rest an easy 8m/m.

Lots of meetings tomorrow, so I won't be able to get in 12m, but will run after work and before core session to try to get in some faster loops of the track and have another go at the faster end of what was planned for today.

Edited: 12/02/2013 at 21:16
12/02/2013 at 21:42

Keir - That was definitely the right approach to this morning. There is nothing heroic about this idea of 'hitting paces' when the body isnt up to it.

The same applies to Friday's run. Set off to do a steady 22 miler, which should be 8 min/mile + and pick the pace up if you're up to it when you're getting close to 18 miles. But dont take the approach of having to hit those figures, they are just random numbers, just lift the effort level progressively as you close in on the 22 miles. Theres no need to look at the watch while you're doing this.

There is still a lot of time left, so 95% of the job is just completing the 22 miles with just 5% being the progressive bit.

The importance of the progressive bit will increase nearer the time but the strength building from the distance will actually produce the speed in 3-4 weeks time.


12/02/2013 at 21:49

ok. Just with 5 1/2 weeks left of the magic8 it feels like I should be really focusing on hitting the pace now. But I'll focus on hitting the mileage rather than stress about the pace.

12/02/2013 at 21:49

PRF - have you run the South Yorkshire (Rotherham) HM or the Retford HM ? After running at Liversedge on Sunday I feel like I've earnt the chance to run a flatish HM and try and beat my PB again, a PB which I happened to set at Liversedge despite the profile of the course. If you have run them both which would you recommend ?

12/02/2013 at 22:19

Keir - I think the difficulty is in accepting that you are actually developing speed without necessarily running out and out fast paces.

By the time you get to the end of the 8 weeks you'll find it relatively easy to accelerate at the end of a steady 22 but just let it come rather than forcing it.

As I mentioned a couple of days ago you might find the quads moaning as you pick the pace up, which is fine, but dont push so hard that your running form becomes untidy.


I'm going to do a progressive 10 miler tomorrow but I have no fixed idea of what pace it will end up being, it will just build as the session progresses.

Carter - I'm doing the SY HM, it is organised by my club. It isnt particularly flat but it is faster than Liversedge and it is a 2 lap course with a fast finish.

I ran around it with YD for the most part last year and ended up with 1:21:xx, the week after Spen 20 and the week before hitting a 5K comeback PB of 17:25 at Hull, so I would guess from that that it is about 2 mins slower than a flat course?

I havent done Retford so cant comment on that one.



13/02/2013 at 12:01

Keir – do you think you are making things tough for yourself by trying to do the harder sessions early in the morning? Can you not juggle things about so you do your easy runs and slower mid long runs are before breakfast and use your weekly evening run window to hit your quality sessions?
I am happy plodding before breakfast but always juggle things to save my mid week evening running window(s) for hard sessions.

Brian – how are things with the calf?

Carter – I agree with prf’s assessment of the South Yorks Half, its about 2 mins slower than a flat HM, it’s a good race though I am tempted to race it again this year.

prf – looking forward to seeing how your 10 miler comes out. Are you doing it on your hilly road circuit or on the track?

parkrunfan wrote (see)

Keir - That was definitely the right approach to this morning. There is nothing heroic about this idea of 'hitting paces' when the body isnt up to it.

I think I might be verging on guilty of that one
15m/w 10m@MP for me last night. It was the end of an 8 day 93 mile streak, so unsurprisingly my legs were tired and maintaining MP was hard work towards the end. Managed to do it without flogging myself too much though, HR numbers were decent, just tired legs which is exactly what I want to be running on at the moment. A couple of easy days now though, been busy at work as well this week so need to look after myself now so I can get in some decent training at the weekend.
Might sack off the parkrun on Saturday, give the Mrs a lie in and earn some brownie points, as a result I should be able to get more mileage in, so playing the long game might be the smarter move here.

13/02/2013 at 12:48
Y D wrote (see)

Keir – do you think you are making things tough for yourself by trying to do the harder sessions early in the morning? Can you not juggle things about so you do your easy runs and slower mid long runs are before breakfast and use your weekly evening run window to hit your quality sessions?

just tired legs which is exactly what I want to be running on at the moment. 

The running in the evening thing is the challenge of motivation and habit. After getting home from work, chaos of getting young kids fed, bathed and asleep I find it hard to get the motivation to get out the door and especially hard to get some quality in. Weds isn't too bad as I don't go home after work and go straight to the track after working late. However you have a point and might be something I try after half term. 

Tired legs is good, so long as they are not too tired to stop you performing the quality (which I have been getting sometimes). I'm looking forward to the freshness they will get after a couple of days rest.

13/02/2013 at 13:00

Fair point Keir, I only have the one bambino, so much easier to juggle for me. Last night I was free to get out for a run without any bed time duty, but in return tonight I am doing the bath and bed routine so Mrs YD can go to the cinema (I have to clean the kitchen as well )
Other nights, I do the bath (usually done by 7 – 7:10pm) and then get out for a run while Mrs YD does the bedtime story. So an even effort split with junior and I can still get in a reasonable run that isn’t too late at night.

Your comment re: tired legs is a good point, I think I was on the point of turning to not being able to get the session done last night, I just managed to fit in 10 mile of quality before I ran out of steam, the last two miles were a struggle, too much of one if I am being honest. Would have probably been better resting yesterday and trying to do the tempo tonight. All part of the learning curve.

Edited: 13/02/2013 at 13:12
13/02/2013 at 14:23

YD -  Sounds like a good session on tired legs, the fact that you added the 'without flogging myself too hard' would suggest you got it about right.

It might sound like mixed messages saying run a hard session but not too hard. But it all comes down to the fact that a few secs/mile either way isnt going to make any difference to the physiological benefits.

Ultimately the session is being done at 5-6 mins slower than what the body is actually capable of doing so there is no point in digging deep into the mental reserves for an extra minute.

There isnt going to be any progressive 10 miler today, the track is out of use and the new snow is piling up too deeply to attempt anything other than a steady run.

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