RW Forum Six – Sub 2.50 Kier with Parkrunfan

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13/02/2013 at 16:25
Keir wrote (see)

a 1hr bike ride is just a warm up

That's one way of putting it.  Somewhere near the end of my 60 mins threshold session on the exercise bike this lunchtime (2x20 mins efforts... perceived effort: sub-threshold/threshold?) I heard a woman say to her mate a few feet away "Oh my God!"  I'm 95% certain she was taken aback by the sweat pool that was being generated all around me.  I was, er, very warmed up. 

But yes, cycling is generally a bit more time consuming for the equivalent effect.  I'm just hoping my running joints keep operating at least till I get to retirement age, then I'll have all the time in the world to saunter about on two wheels! 

13/02/2013 at 17:32

This subject of how long it takes to train for different sports is interesting. I have often wondered how amateur triathletes fit it all in. They usually log their training in total hours and it can get pretty close to a full time job at times.

Phil - A youngster like yourself talking about hanging on until retirement is a wee bit premature to say the least 

YD - Not only did the progressive 10 miler get binned but all ideas of a run at all. It has turned into that fine painful type snow that is very similar to the hailstones I encountered last week.

To repeat a well known phrase, bugger that for a game of soldiers!


13/02/2013 at 18:30

be kind to yourself Keir, like I said last week you have more life stress than lots of others. The odd missed session wont break a campaign, I think you would benefit from a complete weekend off soon (without building long runs around it). I missed the first 10 days of March inc two weekends last year due to a calf strain, looking back I think it did me good, although I'd have preferred it to have been shorter as it took some building back up from too. 

13/02/2013 at 19:17
Keir. Are you finding the experience of posting, being slightly scrutinised by peers etc supportive and positive or intimidating and negative? Or a bit of both? Like TR says - don't beat yourself up for a missed session

PP. you never know. Maybe gym lady was commenting on your rapid cadence with thinly veiled admiration
13/02/2013 at 21:40

I did think of the standard 2x20min tempo on the turbo as I was writing that comment Phil. However for a roadie regularly racing 100m every Sunday, a 1hr ride doesn't really count for much. Do you have to clean up after spilling bodily fluid all over the floor?

A very few dots of snow falling here. COuld be mistaken for odd bits of dandruff. Fingers crossed it doesn't last for you PRF and YD

I thought it would be a mixed bag Fraser. In the past the faster threads, mentors and mentees have come in for a bit of stick. But all seems worryingly fluffy here so far. Perhaps I need to announce some stupid plan to liven things up.

On that note, as part of my post race recovery planning I looked up a few takeaway Pizza places that are open in Canterbury at midnight, so I can pre-order and pick up on my way home after the 32m moonlight Ultra. 

Carefully monitoring the situation TR. But I am feeling as if I have stepped back a stride or so from the edge. The past couple of weeks have been a little close to the limit. I am trying not to miss the planned run, but if when I am on the road I don't feel up to it, I will cancel or compromise the session, hopefully to reschedule it later.

On that note, I had a governors sub committee meeting until 6pm today, so wasn't able to fit in the planned 12, nor do the progressive 5m as part of it. However getting changed at the track I realised how much better I felt getting changed compared to the week before (6/10 Vs 3/10 last week). Changed the training plan (thinking that would make PRF happy) and ran 1.5m w/u, 3m @ 5.49m/m (garmin splits) and 1m w/d followed by 1hr core / stretching. Happy with that. 

13/02/2013 at 22:21

Fluffy !!!! OK, shit session tonight you w@nker 

13/02/2013 at 22:31

That YD chap always has been a sweet talker

Keir - Nice one, good example of going with the flow and just enjoying yourself. As said at the beginning, as long as the entire 8 week block has roughly the right sorts of sessions in roughly the right proportions what is done on any particular day is unimportant. And no need to play 'catch up' either.

My two rest days, yesterday and today certainly wont be being caught up on - theres bound to be some rest days somewhere.

Point for discussion:

I get the impression from quite a few people that if they have relatively stressful jobs or days they find it much easier to go out and blast a run rather than go for something longer and steadier.

If that is the case, it may be worthwhile using it. For instance, your session tonight, Keir, was exactly the same as what I use parkruns for.......

13/02/2013 at 23:05

Seriously, a great session tonight Keir.
For the most part, I like the ‘magic 8’ plan you and prf have put together, a little heavy on the quality in places for me, but I think it contains plenty good stuff, more importantly the right stuff.
The only part of the plan I couldn’t get my head around were the 3m/5k@10k pace sessions. It’s not something I would try to do on my own, or something I think I could get done on my own.  
I always thought you would have been better off doing more traditional sessions in  that pace zone. Things like; kilometre or mile repeats at 5k and 10k pace, 4m or 5m tempo runs at threshold pace and HMP and such like. So, in effect, getting a similar stimulus to the 5k@10k pace run that prf gets at parkrun’s in the competitive environment, but more ‘doable’ on your own.  But hey, you nailed one tonight, so what do I know?

prf – good discussion point, my job isn’t always that stressful, so it’s not something I come up against all that often. If I do, the work stress is more likely to give me a sleepless night than to stop me running. So I suppose it does catch up with you eventually.

As for getting your anger out sessions, hills would be good for that IMO. Not a long session, and not one to worry about splits and paces on either, but a good way to get some pent up violence channelled in a positive way!

14/02/2013 at 10:29

Just doing what my mentor tells me to do YD! 

I would like to run a park run sometime. But my 'local' park run is a 50+mile round trip, so not worth the petrol for just 5k. Also, I think I might be tempted to race or go too hard when running with others, where as in a solo effort keeping a lid on the pace is easier.

In the past I have run sessions like 6x 800, 1200 or 1600 reps at best pace and also went well on this 10k programme last winter, which had a few 2m reps @ 10k pace so prepared me for PRFs fake park run sessions. Last nifght there were a couple of guys running around the outsde of the track, so I wasn't totally alone out there for a change. They made a convient target as they were running 500m for my 900m. 

Hip flexors felt tired again this morning, meaning I start the first couple of miles running like an artheritic OAP. Instead of 5m easy I only did 3 and then added a few stretches, calfs and hamstrings particularly tight and I feell a bit better now. I might also have to sort a massage out in the next week or so.

14/02/2013 at 16:40
Keir wrote (see)

Just doing what my mentor tells me to do YD! 

Herein lies the problem......

I knew you didn’t have a local parkrun, that’s why I thought you might approach it differently to his suggestion. Though its obviously a session you are able to get done without being in the parkrun environment.
The 10k workout you posted was one I used in the build up to breaking 40 minutes for 10k. It was tough, that’s for sure, I hadn’t been running that long at the time and I struggled to always complete the workouts. But hey, if you can get them done they are great workouts.

I have never had a sports massage, how much do they typically cost?

15/02/2013 at 09:16

£30 for 1hr of pain.

12m inc progression today, rescheduled from Tuesday. However woke up with the now usual stiffness and tightness all over lower back, thighs and glutes. I decided to tryo the session but 30sec slower for each pace point. Fine for first 5m @ 7.30, but after 2m (6.50 and 6.42m/m) I cancelled the session as the stiffness wasn't going away and I didn't want to risk injury by pulling anything. So first of my 3 missed session jokers played. 

Thinking back to last year, the injury which came on mid march and put me out of VLM started in the same way - hip area tiredness, then random tightness and different points each day followed by something pulling which then put me out. To treat this I spent quite a bit of time seeing a trigger point accupunture guy who stuck loads of needles around my glutes and hip flexors, but didn't solve the issue. I finally saw a physio who diagnosed very tight 3rd and 4th vertebrate which are responsible for controlling upper leg muscles. After a sports massage focusing on this spot I was finally better and running again, but this all took the best part of 10 weeks.

After self massage last night I can feel a lot of pain and tightness around my lower back, so have saved all that diagnosis time. I have a massage booked for Monday afternoon so will get him to focus on this area. I also think I will also rest Saturday and hope to be a little better for the 22m with progressive 4m at the end on Sunday.

15/02/2013 at 09:54

Mmmmm £30 for a massage, I could spend that on a pair of Brooks Green Silence.
Which reminds me, prf, they are on for £30 with free delivery from sportshoes, use code LM1310P if you order online. Mine have a few holes in them now, though they have about 1,000 miles on the clock, so cant complain as I have had my monies worth out of them

Keir – sounds like you have the situation under control then, fingers crossed the massage does the trick. Tread carefully though. What kind of training were you able to do in the 10 weeks period last year?

Planned and needed rest day for me on Wed, then yesterday my run windows just shut, so no run for two days.
4.5mile this morning, legs felt sluggish, though they always do after a couple of days off.

15/02/2013 at 10:32

After injury came up mid March I managed the following YD:

Wk 1 - 27m over 3 runs. All easy. 55m bike
Wk 2 -  11m (5m + sprint duathlon)
Wk 3 - 6m (2x3m). 2x45m bike 
Wk 4 - No running. 55m + 45m ride
Wk 5 - Nothing whatsoever
Wk 6 - 15m (3x5m easy). 45m bike.
Wk 7 - 10m (5m easy, 5m inc 5k race). 10m TT on bike
Wk 8 - 6m (sprint duathlon). 75m bike
Wk 9 -  22m (3x5m easy, duathlon, 10m TT on bike)
Wk 10 - 32M (2x5m easy, 12m off road, 10m TT  2x turbo session - Finished with a Personal Worst 10k - 41.xx. - But fully recovered by this point.

Wk 11 and 12 I ran 35 / 42m weeks inc a 5k in 18.56, won a duathlon and then ran a hilly off road 10k in 40.04. 2 weeks after that I came 8th in the 19m North Downs Way run, despite no running over 12m for the previous 14 weeks.

Not a happy time (althought looking back I am surprised at how well I held / rediscovered the form with so little training). Although £30 is a lot to pay for something intangible like a massage, looking at the bigger picture, it is a small price to pay if it means I can continue in my sport and not waste the training I have done so far. Consistent consistency is the key.  I used to spend around £200 per year alone on tyres for my race bike, so running is really quite affordable in comparison. 

15/02/2013 at 11:46

Agreed Keir, £30 is nowt if it keeps you going, consistent consistency indeed!
I agree on the bike costs, I was doing a bit of cycling on a hybrid bike a few years ago and was really getting into it, I was considering buying a road bike, then Mrs YD got pregnant, so I shelved the road bike plans and took the running more seriously. Glad I did now.

We all know it doesn’t take that long to get already earned fitness back, especially after a short break, not sure why though. I think maybe the body never really loses it and maybe just needs a reminder.
Are you considering replacing some run miles with bike miles for a while?

15/02/2013 at 12:02

No. Running all the way. I'll rest tomorrow instead of 8m with strides. Run the 22m on Sunday as planned and the 15m on Monday, then hopefully the massage will loosen my back and all will be well.

15/02/2013 at 15:09

Good luck Keir. I have lower back problems too, and that is where all my injury niggles stem from. I have had less problems since I started getting regular massage too.

YD, weekend runs should feel good having had a couple of days off.

Saw a physio yesterday and she brought tears to my eyes. Calf is not torn and I should be able to run a couple of days after my next session (Tuesday). So will have missed 9 days by then so hoping not to have lost any fitness.

15/02/2013 at 21:01
Good to see you're taking the sensible choices Keir. No point at all in wasting all the hard work done so far.

As has been said a million times over no point at all in any of this if you don't get to the start line. Hope it all goes well for you mate
16/02/2013 at 07:39

Cheers Fraser.

I hope all works out for you are well Brian. It is easier said to someone else than when considering yourself, but... sometimes a rest pays dividends later. 

Making the most of my day off by getting jobs done around the house in preparation for my daughters first birthday party tomorrow. 

17/02/2013 at 12:43
Lots of different back stretching exercises yesterday and woke this morning better than I have in ages. I am going to try to do 5-10mins of these exercises everyday of the campaign now. I also have decided to stop doing the 1hr core / circuits programme on a weds night. Although this is my social time of the week as much as anything and I believe that a strong core is especially important in the later stages of the marathon, I now think that I should stick to doing this purely in the preparation and base phase of training. Stressing my core muscles after a hard weds run and in the middle of hefty training just seems too much for my body to handle.

22m run early this morning along Folkestone sea front. Basically 2 laps of the HM course. Lovely clear sky and sunrise over France. Met a mate for the first 13m @ 7.40m/m which pace I continued at until 17.5m mark then for the 4m fast finish I ran 1m @7.30m/m, 1m @6.50m/m, 1m @ 6.35m/m and tried to run 1m @ 5.50 but headwind, legs and mostly my head said NO! Jogged back.

Loads of runners out today. Must have seen 50 where mid winter on that route I am lucky to see 5. The fast finish runs certainly add a level of difficulty and rest in extra tiredness. I've managed to escape party prep duties by sitting up stairs with birthday girl in my arms getting her to sleep, but have probably used up all my 'blagging' time now, so once more into the breech and all that!
17/02/2013 at 16:05
Good end to the week Keir with a fast finish 22. Reading back, it sounds like it has been tough going with the lower back. Keep on top of the stretching and get the massage booked in even if you no longer think you need it. I'm in a similar position with a tendon issue. Soon as I reduce the stretching and do anything intense it starts grumbling away.
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