RW Forum Six – Sub 2.50 Kier with Parkrunfan

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17/02/2013 at 16:07

Keir- Interesting last few posts.

It seems like an issue that you are pretty well clued up on and seem to have the means of managing it.

This morning's run sounds rather pleasant and approached exactly as it should be approached, ie lift the effort level at the end and see what happens but without pushing beyond sensible limits.

There is enough in that run to say that you are getting strong and, with 9 weeks to go, are well on track. Hopefully you're feeling reasonably optimistic at the moment?

It was interesting talking to our new course record holder after yesterday's parkrun. He was saying that his main aim is not to peak too early since he has often found himself peaking about 3 weeks early in the past, even when he ran 2:22.

So, anyone who has a feeling that they're a little behind the curve at the moment could well be in exactly the right position.

17/02/2013 at 19:46
Cheers keir.
Massage this morning. Did 30mins very easy in the sunshine.
Tightness in the calf as expected, but all ok at the moment.
17/02/2013 at 20:14

Keir - I missed the mention of the 1st birthday party. It will be interesting to hear which you think was most kanckering between that and the 22 miler!

Brian - Sounds hopeful. Touch wood.

My 22/23 miler today became a 15.5 miler after the quads gave up the ghost. Nothing that cant be explained by the recent quantity of long runs though. So it ended up being a bit of a cutback week but verything still feels well on track.

17/02/2013 at 21:21

Thanks AR. I am keeping with the massage plan. I needs a bit of loosening off more than just a few stretches will fix. That was a fantastic 20 that you ran today that you mentioned on sub 3.15. You should take a lot of confidence from these past 2 wkends results.

Although I’ve had a few standard marathon campaign ups, downs and stresses recently PRF, but yes, optimistic and positive. It is hard to tell, but I think I am going better than 18mths ago when also 9 weeks out of Abingdon.  I hope your quads recover soon.

Glad to hear you are running again Brian. I hope progress goes well.

Tired, so I’ll do a quick week review and post planned training for this week sometime tomorrow. But all a bit up in the air with several half term activities to juggle around. 

Edited: 17/02/2013 at 22:03
18/02/2013 at 10:35

I can concur that 1st year old birthday parties are hard work! You definitely need a taper before hand, although the carb loading usually takes place during the event!
Congrats Keir, one year old is a lovely age.
Nice 22 miler btw, I agree, hitting 5:50/m at mile 22 sounds very tough.

prf – still decent mileage for a cutback week.

Brian – good news that you appear to be making progress.

I am officially pooped today!
Time for a couple of easy days I think. Ran 66 miles again last week, but was on course for 70 miles but then life got in the way over the weekend. Weekend mileage was 18.5m (4.5m + 14m) on Friday, 3m plod on Saturday and 18.68m on Sunday.

I had planned a 22 – 23 miler on Sunday morning but couldn’t get out as Mrs YD isn’t very well at the moment. I ended up swapping out the planned 22-23 miler with a session I had planned on doing in a couple of weeks; 18 w/ 2 x 5m @ MP. I couldn’t face plodding up and down the same streets for 22m at night, somehow making it a long tempo was easier mentally to get up for.

Session breakdown is as follows:
5M@7:41/M    5M@6:28/m    2.6M@7:45    5M@6:31/M    0.68M@8:51/M
18.68 miles average pace of 7:05/m

The second 5m MP section was very hard, HR and breathing was good but legs just not able to deliver pace without a few big pushes. My legs are very sore today, I think I pushed them a bit too hard!

18/02/2013 at 10:40

Review of week 3 of magic8

61m over 6 days of running. At the start of the week I was pretty stiff and achey from what I assumed was usual tiredness from my 22m LSR the day before. But as the week progressed the aches and pains became more specific and I realised they were very similar to the injury I had last year. Then it took quite a while to get a specific diagnosis (tight lower back) as the pain was through my upper legs. However upon realising the issue and some specific stretches I completed another 22m LSR. Although I couldn't manage to complete the progressive 10m on Friday, I was particularly satisfied with the solo 3m in 17.49 mid week. 


18/02/2013 at 10:44

Plan for this week (week 4 of magic8)

Mon 5m easy
Tue - probably nothing as in France for the whole day.
Wed 12M inc Prog 10M (1.5m w/u then 6.45, 6.40, 6.35, 6.30, 6.25, 6.20, 6.15, 6.10, 6.05, 6.00)
Thur 15m MLR
Fri 8M inc 3M @ 10k pace
Sat 32m Moonlight challenge
Sun rest.

I'm looking forward to the challenge - running further than ever before. PRF - I was thinking of between 8.00 - 8.30m/m for this run. Apart from that anything else I should try for (negative split, fast finish or even slower (9m/m?) start?). BTW - I AM planning to eat during the day beforehand! 

18/02/2013 at 10:48

Good running over the wkend YD. I hope Mrs D recovers soon, but the fact your legs are tired shows that what you did was probably enough without those extra few miles. Those were some tasty MP splits you had in there. 

18/02/2013 at 11:50

Keir - The main thing with the 32 miler is to get some benefit from it rather than lengthy recovery time.

So, on that basis, 8:00-8:30 is probably about right. That tots up to 4:15-4:30 of running, which on the face of it sounds like it will take quite some recovery but the 3:39 we did last Sunday was okay because it was kept gentle. You feel heaviness for a few days but nothing major.

On the other hand, up the pace and recovery could extend dramatically.

I think the two days before it are a bit ambitious though, I'd probably go for an easy 10 Thurs, Easy 6 Fri approach after the progressive 10 miler on Weds, otherwise the challenge could end up being quite a struggle relatively early on.

That would then be a 65 mile week with both quality and endurance included and with a couple of rest days in the mix. That is enough when there is an extreme session in there.


YD - 'Officially pooped' is good.

40 miles over 3 days with some strong 6:30's in there is a good weekend's graft. You've run a lot more mileage in recent weeks than ever before so it is no surprise that that second block of 5 miles was a bit of a struggle. Looking good!

18/02/2013 at 12:02

Well done on the birthday parties boys.  They are hard work, small children!

Keir - glad the stretches etc have got you sorted.   Sorry if you've already said but what time does your 32miler start?  Is this really week 4 of the magic 8?

Mixed bag for me last week.  After the xc on Saturday and the bleak 20 on Sunday my calf was a bit sore.  We have history me and that calf so I let it know who's boss and took 3 days off (apart from little jogs when out dog walking to see how it was doing).   The did 9 on Thursday, 6 on Friday and 21 on Saturday.   Saturday's was unfuelled and the aim was 20 but met a friend at about 15 miles and joined him for the rest of his run, which took me the hill route - good for slowing the pace .

On holiday this week so already bagged today's intervals and the plan is a big week before (hopefully) easing off slightly next week for a HM pb attempt on the Sunday.


18/02/2013 at 14:18

Thanks Keir & prf.

– tough looking schedule this week!!! Good that you appear to be on top of the niggle.

Is it me, or is this period the toughest so far this year?
Suppose we have got past the new campaign enthusiasm and are now getting into some accumulated fatigue, whilst trying to show progress. That’s how it feels to me anyway. I guess the message is hold steady and it will all come good.

18/02/2013 at 19:04

YD - Thats how it should feel mid campaign. Its time to start worrying if you're feeling good 9 weeks out!

Some people are flying but the majority are training heavy and tired, so it should feel like a bit of a slog.

Well worth it when you come out of the other end though.


A steady 10 tonight @ 8:36/mile.

Feeling good for that first 17:xx of the year on the track on Wednesday night at the moment but the legs may mysteriously decide to feel heavy on Wednesday so we will see.......

18/02/2013 at 19:11
Just to toss a small tentative spanner in - surely 8.00 to 8.30 is far too fast for your ultra Keir. Bearing in mind examples like prf's "steady" 10 miler at 8.36 , you're going further than ever before and it's essentially a fun run why not forget about pace altogether? Is the risk not just too great? As you know I was fretting like a Jessie about you doing this run altogether but isn't close to "normal" easy long run pace a tad dangerous?

Just a thought!
18/02/2013 at 20:02

Frazer - You're right in your comments in that it shouldnt be a target pace but more of a 'dont go any faster than 8:00-8:30'.

By not even looking at the pace and keeping it very comfortable I still suspect that the watch would say something close to 8:30 ish at the end though.

Our 3:39 run last week was as relaxed as could be with lots of stop starting and on a very hilly course and came out at 9:25/mile. I cant imagine a continuous 32 miler on a relatively flat profile needing to be as slow as that.

18/02/2013 at 20:46

Thanks PRF. I'll adjust Thurs and Fri accordingly. Is the weds night a timed race, training or solo effort?

The 32miler starts at 7pm Minni. So will probably have baked beans on toast around 4pm for tea. Must remember to put some new batteries in my head torch. - You are really stacking in the 20 milers. Although tough, the training will pay dividends come race day. How many 20+ LSRs are you planning to do this campaign?

To be honest YD, I think this week is quite an easy one. The progressive 10m is pretty tough and the LSR will be very L and S, but apart from that, all pretty easy.

Fraser, you are welcome to toss your small spanner or any larger tools as often as you like on this thread (so long as you keep the pictures to PMs though!) , I view the target pace more as a maximum, capped pace rather than a pace to aim at. What I don't want to do is run too fast and spend too long recovering post run. I reckon PMP + 90sec is a good maximum pace, but will just keep it very easy. I'll also stop now and then (the run is 6m laps) to get nutrition in and recover. Time and position certainly are not targets for Saturday!

Off to France for the day tomorrow. Leave early and back late so might be my first non posting day. 

edit: delayed x-post. Good to see we are thinking similar about Saturday nights pacing PRF


Edited: 18/02/2013 at 20:48
18/02/2013 at 22:12
Keir - this weekend will be No 6. I did 9 last time so I expect it'll be around that or more. I don't know - I just do what I'm told!!

YD - I've still not been able to get an accurate route for the Northumberland half. They took the vague map off the site a few weeks ago and replaced it with a 'location' promising an updated map last week. However the old one seems to reappeared! I've emailed them - again!
19/02/2013 at 09:14

Thanks for the heads up Minni, but I don’t think I will be racing it. I wont be in the NE that weekend now, plans have changed.
As a general point on racing in the build up to the Marathon, I have decided to avoid long races. I have the Thirsk 10 in March in which I will go full beans at, and I will have a few short races closer to M day as sharpeners but don’t want to risk anything on a long race. I think extra long runs are worth more to me at this stage and are lower risk.

prf – Spen 20 is a no no I am afraid, I am not going to risk it (see above) + I can lose a lot of brownie points by racing on Mothers Day.  
As for your slog comment, yes it is feeling a slog at the moment.

Keir – if you call back to back MLR’s (one of which contains a 10mile tempo) followed by a hard 5k run, easy, then you and me have different definitions of easy  

19/02/2013 at 09:44

Keir, Best of luck with the 32M run, where is it? And how does next week's training look like?

Went out yesterday lunchtime for 45mins very easy. Got a little carried away and ended up doing 63mins easy (7.98 miles @ 7:54). Calf tightened a little after about 40mins, but stretched it out and it was fine. All easy runs this week.


19/02/2013 at 12:01

Minni - It sounds like your prep is going really well.

Keir - Enjoy your hop over to France!

The 5000m tomorrow is an official Po10 race and looks like being decent conditions, so is worth a first shot of the year at a 17:xx.

YD - Sensible approach. Racing 10 miles, and possibly 13 miles, is ok but once you go beyond that you really have to control the effort levels.

I love the strategic brownie point calculations

Brian - It sounds like that calf is quickly becoming nothing more than a minor niggle, no doubt a big relief!

19/02/2013 at 13:19

Keir - An ultra in the dark.  Sounds like, er, fun!  I may step into the crazy world of 26+ races one day.  Think I'd be OK at them. I don't know much about ultra running except my intuition tells me I'd prefer to be setting out at something like 8m/m rather than 10m/m purely because I'd find it easier to switch off and clock up the miles, whereas the slower pace would need more active concentration.  I could be wrong!

Re: 20 mile races. I know there's a lot of talk about people getting carried away on these but I've not found it a problem previously.  I'm looking forward to the Finchley 20, which is ideally scheduled at five weeks out from VLM, and I will be treating as my hardest LR. Likely 23 miles for the day (2 mile w/u, 1 c/d) with a steady 5 miles followed by 15 @ MP.  As with all the other MP runs I will have done, "MP" will be a product of running to effort/HR and I'll genuinely only up the pace at the end if there are any oldish looking people up for a race, or if the clock looks like it's in danger of ticking over the 2 hour mark!    Only at this point will I think about genuine time targets for the marathon.  (Although I like to think that the window of possible times is narrowing by the week!)

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