RW Forum Six – Sub 2.50 Kier with Parkrunfan

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19/02/2013 at 15:20

PhilPub, beware as last year Finchley was full of people doing odd paces so even though I did the 4 laps in pretty even pace (aim was 20@MP of 6:30 for 2:10 and ended up in 2:08:09) and all within about 45 seconds of each other (31:37, 31:53, 32:23, 32:15) I spent the whole race passing fast starters who died and others who set out slow and brought it home fast. Very disconcerting when some of the sub-3 thread come flying by at mile 16 so you can't count your chickens until you have crossed the finish line for the 4th time.

19/02/2013 at 16:38

Cheers PMJ.  I guess, all the more reason to stay disciplined and stick to the plan.  If Marigold flies past me at any point, I promise not to try and stick with him! 

19/02/2013 at 21:57

I'm getting a bit worried. Decided to rest and stretch on Monday before the massage. The masseur confirmed at tight and tender lower back and left side. Still stiff this morning, so I decided to rest again and stretched whenever we stood still around the aquarium in France, often rubbing myself up (not in that way) against hand rails. With all this rubbing quite sore and bruised, but still a little bit of pain there when walking. Certainly feeling better than a couple of days ago and there is not much else I can do other than massage, stretch and light training for a while. I'll run tomorrow as a test. 

19/02/2013 at 23:13

Keir - go canny on the rubbing. I'm sure I made my calf injury worse a couple of years ago with a little too much self massage (as well as self TENS and self ultrasound).  In the end it was the frozen trout that helped the most.


20/02/2013 at 08:17

I was one of those who started off slow and then overtook most of the field in the 2nd lap at Bramley. Intended to start off at 8s but that didnt happen so was 7.30s for the first 5, 7:15s-7.30s for the 2nd 5 then ramped up to 6.45s for the last 10. Couple of 6.57s on the hills but otherwise 6.45s all the way. Chuffed with that and tells me where I am. Was tired Monday and yesterday but still clocked 29 miles over the two days. Speed work last night and still managed sub 6 pace in the 600s and an up and down route. 15 today.

I am in the do not race 20s camp. I just think it leaves your body open to illnes and injury afterwards and takes too long to recover. I loved overtaking everyone on the 2nd lap, especially my club mate at 18 miles !!

Am sure you're fine Keir, just take it a bit easy for a couple of days. Niggles always appear when marathon training its learning which are the more serious and which can be trained through that does take experience. I have arthritis (not confirmed yet, but x-ray next week) in the ball of my foot and big toe joint. Its falred up at the mo but the physio is working wonders and it didn't hurt at all until I crossed the line on Sunday, then it cramped up. Arrhhh!

20/02/2013 at 08:59

Keir - there comes a point in time IMO where you have to stop icing/stretching/heating/rubbing  etc and leave it alone to heal up. Apart form a few key exercises. Otherwise it keeps getting stirred up again. I still havnt seen a lion do a few stretches before it chases it's lunch.

Defo in the PRF behind the curve/under cooked camp at this end, but getting there. Managed to make a hilly 22M last me 2:46 on Sunday and backed it up with a 5M +10M commute on Monday (with a lunch time swim session too) and my legs were fine, apart from the knee but thats getting there slowly.

20/02/2013 at 09:08

I don't think there is any real right rule about racing be it 20 miles, a half, a 10k, parkrun or whatever provided you avoid the obvious gotchas so don't be racing a 20 miler 2 weeks out. At the end of the day, there are three things you need to take to the starting line:

1) confidence
2) ability
3) freshness

The whole marathon campaign is a balancing act: if you train harder to improve your ability and get niggles or injuries it negatively affects your freshness. A raced 20 can be a massive confidence booster but if you do a mini-taper and recovery afterwards then you miss a few quality sessions and that affects your ability.

I reckon that as you get more experience, then your confidence grows and so the need for confidence boosting races goes away and you can concentrate more on the other two pillars. For some, a slow start and faster finish is a good confidence booster as well.


Cheerful Dave    pirate
20/02/2013 at 09:24

TR, that's because you haven't been in the African plains as dawn breaks, with the silence only broken by the whispering breeze and the distance sound of the lions' pilates class.

20/02/2013 at 10:10


20/02/2013 at 10:20

An excellent piriformis stretch from our running lion ...

20/02/2013 at 12:18

Nice pussy Minni. Tell me more about the fish.

I wondered why you hadn't posted for a while MM. SOunds like you've been running nicely. Balancing act indeed. It is hard to know which side of the tightrope you are treading when marathon training sometimes.

Wise words PMJ. Know thyself is the key. Unfortunately that takes experience and it is only through mistakes that you really know where your own barriers are. 

Impressive that your knee is recovering whilst you are running such high mileage TR. Shows that rest isn't always the best option.

So today was a bit of a test run for me. After 2 days rest and the massage I really wanted a bit of a test to see how bad / serious things are. I had the first proper progressive 10miler planned for today, so I thought I might as well start doing that and see how far I get. 1.5m warm up @ 7.57m/m with tightness around hip flexors. Took a bit of time to stop feeling as if I was waddling rather than running. However once warmed I got stuck into the head wind along the exposed marsh for: 1m @ 6.57m/m, 1m @ 6.56m/m, 1m @ 6.49m/m, 1m @ 6.41m/m, 1m @ 6.34m/m, 1m @ 6.28m/m. Decided to stop, stretch and jog home at this point, but after a rest I thought I might as well go for an extra out and back along the more sheltered canal tow-path - 1m @ 6.14m/m, 1m @ 6.04m/m. So a pretty satisfying progressive 8miles. Still tight over 2.5m jog home and post run, but I'll keep up the frequent stretching and cross my fingers. 

Does marathon training produce hypercondriacs?  
(I had to check the spelling


20/02/2013 at 12:34

Nice one Keir.  I've occasionally had pain the hip flexor and usually find a blast of fast running actually helps it. Fingers crossed.

This is my emergancy injury treatment pack...


20/02/2013 at 15:55

Love it Minni. Looks a bit like mine too except I have a roller, spikey ball and theraband in mine too. The red wine takes the edge off the rolling !

I am soooo tired today. Little girl was up on the hour, every half hour, not entirely sure or how many times but I feel jet lagged and soooo tired! No idea why, nightmares or something? It was like sleep torture! 

Waddled round 14 miles in just over 8s after I dropped her off at pre-school and can hardly keep my eyes open now and have pilates to get through later yet! Homework to do yet and two boys with tonnes of energy. Garden me thinks and trampoline for them!


20/02/2013 at 17:43

Mitchie - I would hate to go back to those nights.  Although my daughter didn't sleep till she went to High School at 13!   Sometimes tiredness can drive you on.

20/02/2013 at 18:03

It's a rare event fortunately, but I think that makes it worse as I sooo need my sleep ....Fingers crossed she sleeps tonight as I need to work tomorrow as well as run twice, swimming lessons to get through too!

The boys sleep very well, never a peep from them once they're gone.

20/02/2013 at 21:03

My daughter has her 8th tooth coming through so similar disturbed night MM. Like you, with a lack of sleep I really struggle. Luckily half term allows lie-in opportunities for all. 

Edited: 20/02/2013 at 21:05
20/02/2013 at 22:51

Minni - top picture, it dawned on my today that I put Lion instead of Lioness, its not only male humans that expect the Mrs to fetch what I would call dinner and you would call tea.

Keir - not high mileage outside of the long runs so far, this campaign I only have  3x 10M as double digit runs other than LSRs so far. today was going to be my first MLR but I sacked it and went to London with the fmaily instead, no big deal. If the injury is a retwist of the original medial ligamant injury then I can run on it as long as I dont take any backward steps. I havnt run fast on it and have sacked both of my two build up races ( 2 x 10K), I dodnt have any more planned, again no big deal. I'm with PMJ on knowing roughly what I need to do to get sub3 fit and I'm working on 1) and 3) from PMJs post being my best weapons on the day.

ask CW if marathon training produces hypo's.

21/02/2013 at 13:26

TR - I often use the wild animals of the Saharan plains as a discussion point about whether we were really the only species put on this planet that needs:

a) To stretch every working muscle before doing anything - probably not!
b) To need lots of cushioning under our soles because we were so badly designed - again, probably not!


Keir - Yes to the hypochondriac question And a very good session out of yesterday in the end. The fact that it was initially planned as a 10 is neither here nor there really, a progressive 8 miler going through MP and HMP and getting close to 10K pace is a good enough session to bring your fitness on another step!

Did I read that the 32 miler is 6 mile loops so that if needs be you could call it a day at 12, 18, 24 etc?

PMJ - Agreed. It is a balance of probabilities thing with racing 20 milers. You may get away with it and actually get a marathon boost out of it but compared to shorter distances the chances of negatively impacting the upcoming marathon are much higher imo.

There was no 17:xx at the 5000m last night. It was freezing and windy and regular lung fulls of icy air are not conducive to speedy track running. So most people were 30-40 secs down and I ended up with an 18:36, at least it was a sub 6:00/mile session. Just

21/02/2013 at 20:51

Good news TR. Yet another tick for experience. I must admit I wish I knew now last year when I was suffering from similar tightness but couldn't get to the bottom of it. 

Yes, 6m loops PRF, so I can pull the plug at any point and am not planning any herorics. 

10.5m nice and slow this morning, with 2 stops for stretches. Still tight first thing but I am definately looser after a few miles warm up and a bit of stretching. 

22/02/2013 at 09:11

Keir - That sounds a bit like the way Thunder Run is set up then, in roughly 6 mile loops. A whole lot better than a 32 mile point to pointer! Plenty sleep and carbs between now and then I take it?

I hope this tightness is something which just works its way out of the equation but rest assured that everyone has some sort of niggles/aches during a marathon campaign. At least everyone I've ever come across seem to....



18.0 hilly miles @ 7:47/mile last night. This was the same effort level, in fact a touch easier, than previous comparable runs but came out about 30 secs/mile quicker.

I think it was a case of having got the legs ready for a blast at the 5000m the night before but then subsequently not getting to use them due to the limiting factor becoming the icy air in the lungs. As a result, they felt great last night


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