RW Forum Six – Sub 2.50 Kier with Parkrunfan

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20/02/2013 at 22:51

Minni - top picture, it dawned on my today that I put Lion instead of Lioness, its not only male humans that expect the Mrs to fetch what I would call dinner and you would call tea.

Keir - not high mileage outside of the long runs so far, this campaign I only have  3x 10M as double digit runs other than LSRs so far. today was going to be my first MLR but I sacked it and went to London with the fmaily instead, no big deal. If the injury is a retwist of the original medial ligamant injury then I can run on it as long as I dont take any backward steps. I havnt run fast on it and have sacked both of my two build up races ( 2 x 10K), I dodnt have any more planned, again no big deal. I'm with PMJ on knowing roughly what I need to do to get sub3 fit and I'm working on 1) and 3) from PMJs post being my best weapons on the day.

ask CW if marathon training produces hypo's.

21/02/2013 at 13:26

TR - I often use the wild animals of the Saharan plains as a discussion point about whether we were really the only species put on this planet that needs:

a) To stretch every working muscle before doing anything - probably not!
b) To need lots of cushioning under our soles because we were so badly designed - again, probably not!


Keir - Yes to the hypochondriac question And a very good session out of yesterday in the end. The fact that it was initially planned as a 10 is neither here nor there really, a progressive 8 miler going through MP and HMP and getting close to 10K pace is a good enough session to bring your fitness on another step!

Did I read that the 32 miler is 6 mile loops so that if needs be you could call it a day at 12, 18, 24 etc?

PMJ - Agreed. It is a balance of probabilities thing with racing 20 milers. You may get away with it and actually get a marathon boost out of it but compared to shorter distances the chances of negatively impacting the upcoming marathon are much higher imo.

There was no 17:xx at the 5000m last night. It was freezing and windy and regular lung fulls of icy air are not conducive to speedy track running. So most people were 30-40 secs down and I ended up with an 18:36, at least it was a sub 6:00/mile session. Just

21/02/2013 at 20:51

Good news TR. Yet another tick for experience. I must admit I wish I knew now last year when I was suffering from similar tightness but couldn't get to the bottom of it. 

Yes, 6m loops PRF, so I can pull the plug at any point and am not planning any herorics. 

10.5m nice and slow this morning, with 2 stops for stretches. Still tight first thing but I am definately looser after a few miles warm up and a bit of stretching. 

22/02/2013 at 09:11

Keir - That sounds a bit like the way Thunder Run is set up then, in roughly 6 mile loops. A whole lot better than a 32 mile point to pointer! Plenty sleep and carbs between now and then I take it?

I hope this tightness is something which just works its way out of the equation but rest assured that everyone has some sort of niggles/aches during a marathon campaign. At least everyone I've ever come across seem to....



18.0 hilly miles @ 7:47/mile last night. This was the same effort level, in fact a touch easier, than previous comparable runs but came out about 30 secs/mile quicker.

I think it was a case of having got the legs ready for a blast at the 5000m the night before but then subsequently not getting to use them due to the limiting factor becoming the icy air in the lungs. As a result, they felt great last night


22/02/2013 at 11:50

Hope it goes well this weekend Keir.

prf - wow that pace has come down quickly.

Unfuelled runs - an update from me.  I don't normally fuel during long runs anyway but this time has been a first for not eating breakfast beforehand too.  I've now done 4 like this and as I reported previously I felt great during the run and didn't feel the need to overeat afterwards. However, on the first three I found that two days later I felt really hungry and tired.  A couple of these runs had been really hard - either long off road and/or in the snow so that could account for some of the tiredness I guess.  Last Saturday again I did 21 with nothing from the night before and only water en route.  Luckily this was a normal route - road with some hills and the weather was perfect.  Felt fine on Sunday but woke with a headache on Monday morning.  Didn't feel tired and did an interval session no problem but then developed a migraine in the evening.  Not had one for a couple of years and that was in marathon training too.   So, I've concluded that not eating breakfast doesn't suit me.  I'm fine with the not fuelling during the run but starting on empty seems to have a knock on effect further down the line.  Anyone else experienced this?

22/02/2013 at 12:03

Minni - no. In marathon training you should be eating lots, if you are hungry two days later you havnt been eating enough in the previous 2 days. Eat often and well.

22/02/2013 at 12:56

So not eating enough post long run?  I admit I struggle with eating a lot for a few hours after a long run.  I make sure I have a recovery shake, made with milk, as soon as I get in then usually something with eggs within half an hour followed by a meal in the evening.   I'm on the wagon which isn't helping the calorie intake.  That used to account for about 50% of my daily intake! lol

22/02/2013 at 13:33

that post says a lot minni, I'd have three meals and lots of snacks at least after a Saturday or Sunday long bike or run.

22/02/2013 at 13:40

Even if that takes all morning?  Still three meals in the afternoon and evening?  I'd explode!

I've remembered I did actually have a bottle of wine on Saturday night.  

22/02/2013 at 15:28

Minni - An unfuelled long run followed by minimal refuelling does sound like a recipe for getting the body moaning in lots of ways.

Unfuelled long runs shouldnt actually involve any overall reduction in calorie intake, just a bit of shuffling about.

If you struggle to eat much afterwards try energy rich natural foods like raisins and sultanas, they're part of my staple diet


You're right about the pace for that hilly 18 miler having come down for equivalent effort. I've just had a look at the first time that run was done in this build up as a comparison to last night:

10/1/13 18.0 Hilly Miles 2:50:43 (9:28/mile) Weight 74.5kg

21/2/13 18.0 Hilly Miles 2:21:16 (7:47/mile) Weight 71.6kg

That is why there is no real point in paying too much attention to paces early in a campaign when the real benefit is gained from just getting the miles done with some added weight resistance.


TR - Impressed by the fridge magnet time you posted on MG

22/02/2013 at 15:40

There was a fashion about 10 years ago for cyclists to ride around 120 miles unfuelled, get home just about on their knees, have a yogurt and then sleep for a few hours before a proper evening meal. I think the idea originated in Belgium, which probably meant that the unfuelled part was fuelled by other means. 

I am not specfically carb loading for the 32m PRF. Hoping to fat rather than carb burn. But I will take evergy drinks, 4 gels and buy the iggest Pizza I can get at midnight to refuel. As Minni says, nice improvement. What happened to the 5k on Weds then? BTW - What is the difference between raisins and sultanas PRF? Is it the colour of the grape?

Show us your magnet TR

5m this morning. Bloody cold. Starting to snow. But feeling more flexible every day. I know that each campaign has niggles and aches, but this particular one cost me my VLM place, 10 weeks of training and a lot of stress last time, so I am particularly cautious.

Overall I feel as if I am ahead of where I was at this point in the campaign when I ran 2.54. But the last 4 weeks have been a bit of a battle and haven't gone as well as the preceeding 12 weeks. However, this could be a blessing as if I was on top of the training I might well have ended up peaking too early. I expect the 32m to put me out of training for a few days but expecting the benefits to be very beneficial in the long term.


Edited: 22/02/2013 at 15:41
22/02/2013 at 15:54

The magnet says 2:55:52 from 2010 it reads the same upside down !

Minni - if you can force some fodd doon pretty soon after the run then it will get your metabolism going and stop you feeling sick. One of my not so often used phrases nowadays is "eat to compete", dont mention it much now but it used to amaze me the detail some folks will go to on kit, paces, schedules, gadgets etc and then not eat properly.

PRF - teh magnets are great, you see them every day (if they are on the frdge), I'd like a 2:54 this time (due to sligthly compromised build up), I have a 2:51,2,3 and 2x5.

22/02/2013 at 15:57

I've still got my unused magnet from last year on the microwave. Perhaps I should ebay it.

22/02/2013 at 21:18
Thanks TR. Its good to be reminded of the obvious and I'll try harder this weekend.
23/02/2013 at 17:23
At the tent HQ of the moonlight ultra. There is a heater in here and it's arctic outside. Trying to man up. Nervous now.
23/02/2013 at 17:30
Oops - I thought it was last night! I was thinking about you in bed. Now I'll have to do it all again tonight!
23/02/2013 at 18:41
Good luck Keir. I told my wife what you're up to. She was convinced you're certifiable. I'm secretly impressed
23/02/2013 at 22:33

What was the actual start time?

23/02/2013 at 22:39
I think it was 7pm. Of course I could be wrong since I thought it was last night.

Stay warm Keir.
23/02/2013 at 23:02

So could be close to finishing then? I feel for Keir if it is as cold as we experienced for the National this afternoon.

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