RW Forum Six – Sub 2.50 Kier with Parkrunfan

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22/02/2013 at 11:50

Hope it goes well this weekend Keir.

prf - wow that pace has come down quickly.

Unfuelled runs - an update from me.  I don't normally fuel during long runs anyway but this time has been a first for not eating breakfast beforehand too.  I've now done 4 like this and as I reported previously I felt great during the run and didn't feel the need to overeat afterwards. However, on the first three I found that two days later I felt really hungry and tired.  A couple of these runs had been really hard - either long off road and/or in the snow so that could account for some of the tiredness I guess.  Last Saturday again I did 21 with nothing from the night before and only water en route.  Luckily this was a normal route - road with some hills and the weather was perfect.  Felt fine on Sunday but woke with a headache on Monday morning.  Didn't feel tired and did an interval session no problem but then developed a migraine in the evening.  Not had one for a couple of years and that was in marathon training too.   So, I've concluded that not eating breakfast doesn't suit me.  I'm fine with the not fuelling during the run but starting on empty seems to have a knock on effect further down the line.  Anyone else experienced this?

22/02/2013 at 12:03

Minni - no. In marathon training you should be eating lots, if you are hungry two days later you havnt been eating enough in the previous 2 days. Eat often and well.

22/02/2013 at 12:56

So not eating enough post long run?  I admit I struggle with eating a lot for a few hours after a long run.  I make sure I have a recovery shake, made with milk, as soon as I get in then usually something with eggs within half an hour followed by a meal in the evening.   I'm on the wagon which isn't helping the calorie intake.  That used to account for about 50% of my daily intake! lol

22/02/2013 at 13:33

that post says a lot minni, I'd have three meals and lots of snacks at least after a Saturday or Sunday long bike or run.

22/02/2013 at 13:40

Even if that takes all morning?  Still three meals in the afternoon and evening?  I'd explode!

I've remembered I did actually have a bottle of wine on Saturday night.  

22/02/2013 at 15:28

Minni - An unfuelled long run followed by minimal refuelling does sound like a recipe for getting the body moaning in lots of ways.

Unfuelled long runs shouldnt actually involve any overall reduction in calorie intake, just a bit of shuffling about.

If you struggle to eat much afterwards try energy rich natural foods like raisins and sultanas, they're part of my staple diet


You're right about the pace for that hilly 18 miler having come down for equivalent effort. I've just had a look at the first time that run was done in this build up as a comparison to last night:

10/1/13 18.0 Hilly Miles 2:50:43 (9:28/mile) Weight 74.5kg

21/2/13 18.0 Hilly Miles 2:21:16 (7:47/mile) Weight 71.6kg

That is why there is no real point in paying too much attention to paces early in a campaign when the real benefit is gained from just getting the miles done with some added weight resistance.


TR - Impressed by the fridge magnet time you posted on MG

22/02/2013 at 15:40

There was a fashion about 10 years ago for cyclists to ride around 120 miles unfuelled, get home just about on their knees, have a yogurt and then sleep for a few hours before a proper evening meal. I think the idea originated in Belgium, which probably meant that the unfuelled part was fuelled by other means. 

I am not specfically carb loading for the 32m PRF. Hoping to fat rather than carb burn. But I will take evergy drinks, 4 gels and buy the iggest Pizza I can get at midnight to refuel. As Minni says, nice improvement. What happened to the 5k on Weds then? BTW - What is the difference between raisins and sultanas PRF? Is it the colour of the grape?

Show us your magnet TR

5m this morning. Bloody cold. Starting to snow. But feeling more flexible every day. I know that each campaign has niggles and aches, but this particular one cost me my VLM place, 10 weeks of training and a lot of stress last time, so I am particularly cautious.

Overall I feel as if I am ahead of where I was at this point in the campaign when I ran 2.54. But the last 4 weeks have been a bit of a battle and haven't gone as well as the preceeding 12 weeks. However, this could be a blessing as if I was on top of the training I might well have ended up peaking too early. I expect the 32m to put me out of training for a few days but expecting the benefits to be very beneficial in the long term.


Edited: 22/02/2013 at 15:41
22/02/2013 at 15:54

The magnet says 2:55:52 from 2010 it reads the same upside down !

Minni - if you can force some fodd doon pretty soon after the run then it will get your metabolism going and stop you feeling sick. One of my not so often used phrases nowadays is "eat to compete", dont mention it much now but it used to amaze me the detail some folks will go to on kit, paces, schedules, gadgets etc and then not eat properly.

PRF - teh magnets are great, you see them every day (if they are on the frdge), I'd like a 2:54 this time (due to sligthly compromised build up), I have a 2:51,2,3 and 2x5.

22/02/2013 at 15:57

I've still got my unused magnet from last year on the microwave. Perhaps I should ebay it.

22/02/2013 at 21:18
Thanks TR. Its good to be reminded of the obvious and I'll try harder this weekend.
23/02/2013 at 17:23
At the tent HQ of the moonlight ultra. There is a heater in here and it's arctic outside. Trying to man up. Nervous now.
23/02/2013 at 17:30
Oops - I thought it was last night! I was thinking about you in bed. Now I'll have to do it all again tonight!
23/02/2013 at 18:41
Good luck Keir. I told my wife what you're up to. She was convinced you're certifiable. I'm secretly impressed
23/02/2013 at 22:33

What was the actual start time?

23/02/2013 at 22:39
I think it was 7pm. Of course I could be wrong since I thought it was last night.

Stay warm Keir.
23/02/2013 at 23:02

So could be close to finishing then? I feel for Keir if it is as cold as we experienced for the National this afternoon.

24/02/2013 at 11:47


Edited: 24/02/2013 at 12:38
24/02/2013 at 12:39
Minni wrote (see)
Oops - I thought it was last night! I was thinking about you in bed. Now I'll have to do it all again tonight!

If I'd read that whilst running I might have been motivated to carry on for a 6th lap! 

How were the Nationals PRF?

You know you want to Fraser 

Start time was at 6pm last night. The route was very near to the north coast of Kent an with the wind blowing from the north it was blody cold. Lots of snow flurries. I normally run in a t-shirt with a fleece over the top, but due to the cold I decided to run in a long sleeve compression top rather than the tshirt. Also I noticed most people had loads of layers and all had a waterproof top over their layers, so I put on my goretex jacket as well. A good move.

Set off by the bang of a fire work and 2 guys sped off like rockets - must have been close to 8m/m. I ran with a group at 9m/m for the first mile, then bridged up to a group of 3 others in 3rd place and seen the average speed overall was 8.30m/m. However as we got chatting the pace dropped at was 8.45m/m when I took a toilet break at the 5m mark. I caught them up quite comfortably and decided to press on at the same pace so was all by myself at the end of lap 1. Although unsure of running the reminaing 27m by myself I thought it would be good mental training and was probably the only way I could hit my target of between 8 - 8.30m/m pace. (6.6m - ave 8.35m/m overall). 

I took a 500ml bottle of water and sipped this whilst running into the wind. Pace dropping all the time and pulse arond 155, which is close to my marathon bpm of 162, but it felt comfortable. Half way round the 2nd lap and I had passed the guy in 2nd and spotted the leader a couple of minutes ahead. Another bottle of water and jellybabies completed the lap - (13.1 - ave 8.12m/m)

I stopped at my car to grap a 750ml bottle of SIS Go and a gel and sipped this over the entire 3rd lap. Getting close to the leader, whilst running on tarmac and concrete road I turned my head torch off. I could see by the beam of his light that he kept looking over his shoulder at every turn, so was quite pleased to be able to get within 100m of him before hitting a rougher mud track section where I needed to turn on my torch. I had a few wrds with him, but he had headphones in and didn't seem to want to talk, so I ran on. At this point my ave pace for the run was 8.10m/m and I could tell the the previous leader was trying to keep me in sight. To break him I turned off my torch and ran faster so my overall pace dropped to 8.05 by the end of the lap. When I looked round at the next rought section (where everyone needed to have their torches on) he was nowhere in sight. - (19.7 - ave 8.05m/m)

At the start of the 4th lap I picked up another 2 gels and 750ml bottle of GO from my car, but felt quite bloated and sick. I think I had taken on a bit too much over the previous lap. I didn't take another gel in the end and left the bottle with a marshall at the start of a loop and picked it up at the end of the lop - half way through the lap. Pace dropping slightly, but not by much. It was strange to catch people. From a distance it looked as if they were flying along, on a bike rather than running. But on passing them they were hardly moving and I soon left them behind. However this wierd perception of speed also meant I was sure I was being chased down when it was actually a runner whom I had just passed. - (26.3 - ave 8.09m/m)

Edited: 24/02/2013 at 12:39
24/02/2013 at 12:40

Pleased to get onto lap 5 and now catching and passing lots of runners. Despite the biting snow, lots of positive coments shared. I took tme to stop and thank all the marshalls. Although I was wary of injury and over-tiring myself wilst running beyond 26.2 miles, I also wated to avoid being caught and get the benefits fo finishing strongly. Knowing the course, the way round the puddles, the long stretches of concrete road and odd pot holes on the final stretch now helped a lot and I finally crossed the line in 4hr 32min for 32.75m - 8.13m/m.

After 2 bowls of hot soup and getting changed into warmer clothes and picking up a small winners trophy, there was still no sign of the 2nd placed runner, so I drove home, ran a bath and went to bed. 

Usual post marathon tired legs today - stairs are an issue, but no blisters, niggles and I think I might have found a new hobby in Ultra running. 

24/02/2013 at 12:57

Great run their Keir. I was a bit worried when I started reading as you said you may have run a 6th lap and I thought that you had dropped out after 5 of 6 and the more I read, the faster you seemed to go and the more it became a race and not jut a MP+60 run, but all turned out well.

Any thoughts on this versus the Kent Coastal you did before Abo? Those seemed closer (I guess this is 8 weeks out and that was maybe 5 or 6 weeks)

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